Page Fright
Hosted by authors Sydney Kain (Our Love Language is Murder: coming Feb 2027), and Liza Petrov (Pre-Query). PAGE FRIGHT follows the journey of Sydney and Liza as they find their place in the literary world. Each week they offer a unique take on the ins and outs of the publishing industry, discuss craft and the vulnerability it takes to be a writer, and they answer questions from fans. New episodes every Tuesday.
Page Fright
Star Ratings Need To Go
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On this week's episode of the Page Fright podcast, Sydney and Liza tackle a few very tough questions: Is it an author's responsibility to provide their audience a "moral ending"? Are Dark Romance novels negatively affecting relationships? And the hottest bookish topic we discuss; are book ratings doing more harm than good?
In an age where review bombing is rampant and positive social media engagement can be purchased or fabricated, determining who to trust to properly inform us about the quality of a book becomes difficult to navigate. Between the BookTok accounts who's livelihood is dependent on reviewing the hottest Romantasy novels and the faceless 1-star reviewers on Goodreads providing little context outside of a simple "this was awful", bookish credibility is being scrutinized.
So, is it finally time to do away with star ratings across the board amongst this literary controversy?
If I tried a writing sprint, I feel like my computer almost fell. Why am I? I am having so much trouble. Hello. How are you? This I'm good. I'm back home from traveling.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. How was it? We we barely missed each other in San Francisco.
SPEAKER_02I know. You went to San Francisco right before I went to San Francisco. So that's why my background was different last week. We were just days apart.
SPEAKER_03And we were staying like 10 minutes from each other.
SPEAKER_02I know. When you sent me your location, I was like, oh my God, it was just down the street. I traveled all over the place and just went to see family and it was really fun. And you were there with family as well.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I was. I went and stayed at my grandmother's haunted house.
SPEAKER_02And so Yes, which has been an inspiration for at least one story that I know of.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it has. Um the one that's on sub right now.
SPEAKER_02Oh, very exciting. Very exciting.
SPEAKER_03So we both haven't gotten a lot of work done over the past few weeks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I've been I've been trying to do better. I've made some progress on my book, which I'm really happy about. I which one? The main one. Oh the one I can't finish. I've made a lot of progress on it, uh, which I'm really happy about. I made some big cutting decisions, which, you know, makes me feel better and less stressed. So that's been really nice. And for everyone out there, I work with a therapist for my affectionism and my ADHD. I've been working on different techniques to keep myself from twiddling my thumbs and picking at the story too much, as well as trying to stay on track. I've actually really gotten into writing sprints. I I'm certain that a lot of listeners out there have participated in writing sprints. Have you done writing sprints before, Sydney? No, I haven't. Oh, they're great. They're fantastic. I actually joined a group over COVID bizarrely to do online writing sprints. So basically, do you know what they are? You just set amount of time, right?
SPEAKER_03And then you write for that amount of time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So you you set a short amount of time and then you just do it on on repeat. Usually it's about 10 minutes. It can be 15 or 20. And a lot of the times actually people get together and they have a group leader that sets a timer and then they all just talk for five minutes. They kind of gel and then boom, write for 10 minutes. It doesn't matter what. You know, just make sure that you're writing the entire time. And then timer goes off, five minute chat, and then you get back on it and you commit to a certain amount. So it kind of sets you up for a lot of progress that you might have kind of dawdled away just trying to generally work.
SPEAKER_03I should try that because I talked to our mutual friend today, and she was telling me we calculated how many words I need to write to meet my deadline by December 1st. And it was like 450 words a day to meet my deadline. Okay. That's not that's not terrifying.
SPEAKER_02No, but I think if I if I tried a writing sprint, I feel like Hold on, my my computer almost fell.
SPEAKER_03Why am I I am having so much trouble? I should try and do the writing sprints because I talked to our mutual friend who told me that I have to write like 450 words a day to meet my deadline of December 1st. That's not that bad. Yeah, it doesn't sound like a lot, but I don't write every day. So I'm like, okay, how much is a week? And then that gets a little, but I think we're to do writing sprints because I think the trick of writing sprints of how it works with the psychology of it is that you start doing it for 10 minutes and then you get in the groove and then you're like, I can do a little more. I could do a little more. And then before you know it, you've written a couple thousand words. So that's I think would be really helpful for me to just get me going. Yeah. Although I did write like 350 words today.
SPEAKER_02So oh, good for you. Well, so I think with writing sprints, there are two kinds. One that's really good for the drafting process, where you don't have a specific goal in mind. You're just like, just words. Let's just do words. Get them on the page, just move me forward. That's great. Where you just dive into each sprint. But for me, I'm in the editing process. And for the longest time, I thought I couldn't do sprints because I was like, Yeah, but I need to do specific things. How can I judge what I can do within a sprint time? Then I just challenge myself to do it. So basically, what I do, I actually do sprint planning sessions too. So before each 15-minute sprint, I set my timer for two minutes and I only have two minutes to decide like what I can accomplish editing-wise within 15 minutes. So I started off making myself like stupid small goals. And that actually helped because I realized like, okay, I can accomplish this stupid small goal within five minutes. Can I just keep going a little bit? And then I reflect back on what I was originally able to do in 15 minutes. Then I apply that kind of sense of scope to the next one. But honestly, giving myself only two minutes to plan out the sprint really helped me focus my mind and decide exactly what I was going to do. So I've committed to my therapist between four sprints a day, four sprints a day, a total 60 minutes of work, but it's harder than you think. No, it sounds it sounds hard. Yeah, it's harder than you think because I'm not just trying to do 15 minutes of work. I'm trying to accomplish a specific goal within 15 minutes. So if I don't succeed, I actually have like a little list where like I either give myself a check marker or an X. And if I get an X, then it doesn't count. And I need to succeed with the thing, with the goal within the 15 minutes. Wow. So once I succeed at the goal, then then I'm really moving forward and I'm spending my time wisely. That's great.
SPEAKER_03You're you're giving a bunch of people free therapy tips. Maybe. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I all I know is that I need therapy. So I I just I went to do it because I'm a terribly irresponsible person. Neurologically irresponsible.
SPEAKER_03Well, while you've been making tons of progress and doing really well, I have been just twiddling my fingers and struggling. Although I have made it past 17,000 words, I am now at 19 and a half thousand words. I just got back today my proofread round of edits for the novel that's coming out in February, which we're now six months out. Okay, first of all, congratulations. Congratulations. How do you feel? I'm ready to get this going. I feel like I have been waiting years. Well, not feel like I have been waiting years for this to happen. So let's get this count going. I'm ready. Um, so I have proofreads, and then next month I'll do a cold read and we'll see what happens. Was it scary to get the proofreads? No, because nothing happens at this round. You just read like you can't change anything in the proofread round. You're literally just looking for grammatical errors, punctuation issues, and that's the only thing you can change. And my editor's so good. You like your editor? Yeah, even last round I didn't find any mistakes in our which one was that one? There's like so many rounds I'm losing track. But the last round I've had to change anything. So this time I have a feeling I'm not going to change anything. It's just going to be reading my book for the six trillionth time and trying to stay enthusiastic about it.
SPEAKER_02I think we should have included that aspect of publishing in our question last week in our discussion about whether you should love your book. Because I have a distinct feeling that most authors fall out of love with their book at this stage. The 600th time reading it, they're just like, no, I'm done with you. I don't want to read you anymore.
SPEAKER_03Especially because you're not allowed to change it after a certain point. So when you're on 550th time reading it through, you may Oh God. But then you're like, Oh, you can't? Not allowed. Can't change this. So then you extra hate it. Oh no. And didn't see it. That's really funny. I love that. That's where I am now. I'm hoping to make some progress. I'm gonna do what you suggested. I'm gonna give myself some sprints. I'm gonna do 10-minute sprints in an hour and give myself like five 10-minute breaks in between and then just see if I can do it. And because I just have to get a certain amount of words. I know the story. So all I have to do is just put the words down.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and just commit to them and don't worry how they sound the first time. The thing that helped me was not even proofreading. Like I called it my vomit draft, and I just got it out and it didn't even matter. Like the thing that held me back was actually rereading in order to start for the day. I literally wouldn't even care about the transitions between where I ended writing yesterday and started writing the next day because I knew if I read that paragraph right when I ended, I would go further back. And then I would just start working on this section and reworking and reworking it. Here's the trick. You could try this out. I've never done it before. I just came up with it in my head like two seconds ago. But when you start a new day of writing, do not start writing on the same page in your document. Go to a fresh page and just go from there. Don't even look at yesterday's writing. Just try to remember where you left off and forgive yourself if you when you read it through all the way for the second time and you see like, wait, I didn't even know where I was. Just like forgive yourself. Don't even think about that scenario. Just write on the next page and fuck the rest.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, what I did today that actually had made me have forward momentum is I just read the last sentence that I wrote. And then I was like, I remember where I was now. And then I started writing. And that actually helped.
SPEAKER_02That's the difference between you and me. I it's too dangerous. That last sentence, it'll suck me in. So yeah. But you're you're better than me. You'll you'll be able to just blast forward. I know you will. And that's about us. Yeah, enough about us.
SPEAKER_03Wait, what? Where today we're gonna be talking about something a little controversial, which is should books have star ratings?
SPEAKER_02Okay, why is it controversial? I don't know why it's controversial. I just I know my opinion on it. I know what some friends who have been published who have their books on good Goodreads think about it, but I don't know why there's disagreement. So can you like break this down for me before we start?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, to be honest, I don't really understand this either, which actually one of our followers reached out to me because I saw a post of someone supporting not having star ratings and I reposted it because I was like, oh, this is a very cool take. And then someone messaged me and said, Hey, just so you know, this is very controversial right now because they know like what we had just been through. Yeah. What? This is controversial. So I looked into it a little bit, and I guess the people that do not think the star ratings are useful believe that they're not accurate and they're so subjective. And you don't always know what the stars are rating. Is it rating entertainment? Is it rating uh like the quality and structure of the story, the quality of the prose, or are they unhappy with the ending or happy with the ending or or what happened to the characters in the end? Or I mean, it could be anything. Were they bored? Anyway, all the things that we've been reading in our uh throw the tomato segment. Yeah. That's the side for not having stars and just having a description of the experience. You know, based on this, I would or would not recommend. And then people who want the stars want it for obvious reasons. We live in a society where everything's rated. You know, we have the rotten tomatoes for movies and you know, reviews for with critics. And we live in a review society. So I think people like having that option to read their book and then rate it. And then there's a whole bookstagram community where they make you know careers on writing these books. So that's the controversy. And I thought, okay, hmm, let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I'm I generally fall on the side of ratings shouldn't exist. I but I also I don't like Rotten Tomatoes either. I don't think that it's helpful for movies. I think movies are also highly subjective, just like books. I think that oftentimes the ratings, because they're highly subjective and stars are particularly inaccurate, they're particularly broad, just like you described. Like, is it did they not finish reading it because they were upset about the subject matter? Because they were bored, because it was something to do with the the writing caliber, or what? I don't know. Oftentimes people's reviews are so nonsensical, but also some people give out five stars like handy, and some people are like, you'll have to pry that five star rating from my cold dead hands, you know? They're like, I'll get I loved this book. Like, this is my favorite book I've ever read, three and a half stars. And you're just like, that hurts. Why couldn't you at least give me a four? I've heard fellow writers say this. They're like, listen to this review. What do you think it would mean in stars? And I'm like, that's a five. That was just like dripping from the rooftops. I love this, you know, the hills are alive, basically, like that song, like just twirling in the mountains, so happy that they read your book and then three and a half stars. It's like, what is happening?
SPEAKER_03Well, and then there's that running joke amongst authors where once a certain amount of people rate your book, it's gonna average out to like 3.6, 3.8 stars because you have the people to give it the five, and the people are gonna give it the ones and twos. And then every book at the end is gonna be, you know, a solid three plus.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's strange. And I don't know, I don't know if you've had any kind of experience yet with talking with people and publishing around how you are treated based on the star reviews that people are going to leave. But I I can't imagine that it's it feels fair to the author or it's not nerve-wracking on some level to have an opinion that's so subjective, boiled down to stars that are not necessarily accurate.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think too, the more ratings a book has, the more likely it is to be picked up. Think about a book that you see that has 30 reviews, all five stars. Are you gonna be more likely to pick up that book or the book that has 500,000 ratings with a 3.8 star?
SPEAKER_02Well, obviously the data tells me that more people read one and thus it probably holds interest longer, probably spread word of mouth better. But the stars don't really matter to me that much in general. Like, I kind of when I'm thinking about a book, I don't care if it has a bunch of one stars necessarily, because again, I don't trust it as data. Like the only stars that I trust come from, like I understand Bookstagram people saying I make my living off of this. You know, it's like movie critics, two thumbs up, they make their living off of saying a specific rating. And it's because you know what their rating means. If the stars work for critics, I don't think that it works for general readership reporting online what they thought.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because there's no grading schedule. There's there's no key that tells you if you rate a five-star, here are all the requirements to get that five star. And I've actually been seeing a trend on Bookstagram, though, where some influencers are no longer putting a rating, they're just putting their review of it. And then based on their review of it, people can either decide for themselves if they want to read it.
SPEAKER_02That's interesting. I think that the stars make sense for critics. I think that they should keep the stars. That's fine with me because you can identify a specific set of criteria and a specific taste level and decide, does this match me? Because there are certainly critics out there of books, of art, of movies that I trust. And there are critics in those same areas that I absolutely don't trust. So it's like there's some critics, I'm like, if you hated this, I'm definitely seeing it.
SPEAKER_03You know? That that is so true. Every time I go to my dad's house and he tells me I should watch this horrific sci-fi movie, if he's if he tells me any movie is good, I'm like, let me just scratch that off my list. I don't need to be seeing his choice and anything. I love that. I guess it's about finding the critic that you trust of these things. Yeah. What happened?
SPEAKER_02I just got a cat and oh, is he in here knocking things down?
SPEAKER_03Yes. His name is Edgar, after Edgar Allan Poe. He's gonna be my evil henchman moving forward to hold me accountable for.
SPEAKER_02I can hear Edgar Allan Poe uh shoveling around. Do you want to pick him up and show him on camera? Sure.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01So here's my new kitty. Oh my goodness. Look at those paws.
SPEAKER_00Look at those little mittens.
SPEAKER_01He's so good. Hi, Edgar. Nikki because he's being a little disruptive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I guess. This is like we never get interrupted this much in episode. I know. Like, this is the funniest thing. So I'll say this. I kind of think that all reader reviews need to go. Cause I don't need them. Like as a reader, I'm not saying as a writer. I'm saying as a reader, I don't rely on them because I look at the reviews and I'm like, but I don't know you. You know? I I want I want someone with a Substack. I want someone in a magazine. I want someone with a YouTube channel. I want someone that consistently puts their voice out there, has a voice, meaning like they have a style and they have an opinion, a consistent opinion that I can follow. And I'm assuming that if you really get into Goodreads, I'm assuming that there are some like mega reviewers on Goodreads that people start to follow, you know, like they just consistently review and they've made something of that. I'm not really speaking to those people, but in general, like I just don't understand. I don't know, would would I hate you in my book club? Are you Sunny's dad? Hey, Sunny's dad, if you're listening.
SPEAKER_03Well, do you think though that giving people the option to review a book increases readership because they feel like they're offering some kind of value? You read your book, then you have your taste, and you feel like, okay, and now I get to give my opinion. And they give a star review, and now they feel some sort of accomplishment. They have it in their little dashboard now, and other people can see that. And I'm wondering if this community-based rating system makes people read more.
SPEAKER_02Okay, you're right. My desire is not economically sound for the publishing industry. Anyone that's in it is just like, no, that's a terrible idea. We need to sell books. And I'm like, okay, I understand. But for me in general, like as a reader, I don't use it. And I don't understand it. And I also don't particularly like it because I feel like I'm gonna bring something else up that happens. And it started happening with Rotten Tomatoes, and I know it happens on Goodreads when people review bomb stuff. Yes. For for reasons that are completely unrelated to the book's content, or maybe it's related to the book's content, but it's like it was considered extra controversial or spicy, or everyone just decided to hate on the author, and so whatever. Like they got caught up in some sort of culture war. Now it just has a million one-stars for no good reason.
SPEAKER_03Although there is a protection of that. After Charlie Kirk was assassinated and some big-time authors made disparaging comments about him, those authors that made those comments started just getting review bombed on Goodreads. Wow. Goodreads actually removed those reviews and blocked their book from being rated for a while. I had no idea. So there is a protection against that, but it is scary that people can just come and attack you whenever. And like, what if Goodreads doesn't flag that particular bomb? And then now you have a million one stars there.
SPEAKER_02I don't think that there are protections on Rotten Tomatoes, but I'm I don't know the answer to the. Oh, I don't know. Because I'm I'm always hearing about review bombing or review spanning that comes from like production studios and stuff, just paying people to say this movie was great before it comes out. Where can I get that service? I mean, we'll talk about it offline. You could probably you could probably buy bots. That's how people, you know, blow up their social media numbers.
SPEAKER_03Now let's move on to our main act where we discuss is it an author's responsibility to have a moral ending?
SPEAKER_02Well, I said last week, no, I don't think so. I'm I'm a I'm kind of a hardliner on this, and I'm I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people disagreed with me.
SPEAKER_03Well, first of all, this came to mind. What even is a moral ending? Okay, I've been thinking about this since we discussed it last week, and I've gone down this existential crisis of like people have different morals, you know, and then somebody's moral ending will be someone else's immoral ending. And so you think, first of all, let's tackle is there such a thing as a moral ending in a book?
SPEAKER_02Yes, there definitely is. I think it it it depends on what the writer's project is because some people go into writing a book in order to ask questions. They're there to pose questions and not give answers. And it's it's a complex project, it's supposed to challenge the reader, and it's not necessarily supposed to end at a point that makes everybody happy or comfortable. And then there are other people who write books who have a clear message, they have a clear mission, and they want to convince you of some sort of moral outcome being the right way to be. And that's that's a completely valid way to write a book. So, yes, I think that you absolutely can have a book that has a moral ending that was planned by the author. Even though the the morality of that ending might be controversial based on the reader, the reader might not agree that it's moral, it was still intended to be a moral lesson, for example.
SPEAKER_03Well, okay, so it's a moral lesson, but not necessarily saying that something is moral or not. Well, morality is completely subjective. Exactly. To a certain extent. So I was thinking about, you know, like these if if anyone ever went to college and took, you know, philosophy 101, these questions like, is stealing like a moral thing? Is it right or wrong? Yeah. Oh, stealing it's bad. Don't do it. Well, what if one of your family members is dying and they need this medication, but you can't afford to have this medication? And so you go to the store and you steal the medication and prevent this family member from dying. Was that the right choice? Or should you have just let them die and then kind of a murderer if you don't like save them?
SPEAKER_02So well, in it okay, so you can look at that as like a real life scenario, but presented in a book. I I would say that most books that I personally like and that I would want to write myself would pose questions like that and not answer whether they're right or wrong. They would just happen. And you're left to dwell on it because it's kind of the way life happens. Life doesn't happen in a moral arc. We humans try to act in a moral arc that we define for ourselves and for each other via society. So when you're creating a novel, you're not creating a human that travels the moral arc that they have decided on. Like you're creating characters, but you're ultimately putting them into a setting that most people want to feel like real life. And I think that space between immorality and morality, that's when your book comes alive. That's when people start to feel connected to it because it starts to feel like their own lived experience. And the grace that they experience from from day to day, the moral gray areas that they encounter naturally, they're like, oh, someone else saw it, and they put it on the page. And it it feels more real to me that way.
SPEAKER_03I also feel that's how minds are changed. So the kind of the book that got us talking about this was Me Before You.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Let's introduce it. Because last week, when you when you told me about it, I found it so interesting. I've been thinking about it ever since. So please, please tell me again.
SPEAKER_03Me Before You is about a girl who gets hired on as a caretaker for this man who is wheelchair bound, who can't move his arms or his legs, and he is taken care of by this young girl, like, you know, in her 20s. And the mom hires her, and you're kind of wondering why she would get hired because she's not very good at her job, and she's kind of clumsy and a little ditzy, but she's really cute and sweet. And then you find out later on in the book that the mom hired her, hoping that her son, uh the man in the wheelchair, would fall in love with her and change his mind about assisted suicide because he no longer wants to live this life. And the whole book is about them falling in love and about him deciding if he's still gonna follow through in the end. And I'll go ahead and spoil it, so if you don't want to hear it, plug your ears. But in the end, he does go ahead and go through with it. And a review that we saw was someone saying that this was a very immoral ending and irresponsible of the author to write it. And this really got us thinking that first of all, is this an immoral ending? And second of all, is that an author's uh responsibility to have these moral endings? And when you think about books like these, you have your own morals inside of you. And then you read a book like this, and by the end, if they do something that's against your values and more your morals, you're gonna have a certain amount of cognitive dissonance where you've just experienced something that goes against how you identify yourself and it causes some uncomfortable feelings. And then from that point, you can either change your behavior to get back on track to alleviate this cognitive dissonance, or you can adopt this new belief, and then something inside of you is changed as well. So I think what happened here is this person read the book, had really bad cognitive dissonance, and then decided, okay, I'm gonna hate this book because this will help me stay aligned with my morals. But I also think that books like these will create a different response in other people where maybe they're vehemently against assisted suicide. And then they read something like this and they're like, okay, this is making me uncomfortable. Like me, it made me very uncomfortable because I wanted him to live for her. And then I was like, you know what? I don't know what this experience was like for him. Well, I do know because I read the book and it's given me a different level of empathy. And now my mind changed a little and it's opened up my world and it's broadened my understanding of other people. And that's why I love books that have these big moral questions because they help people change in a very non-threatening manner because they're choosing from this material, and then at the end, they're left with this question of what did I learn from this book and how am I gonna change from it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and in some sense, when you read a book like that, you describe it as changing. I think that for me, when I imagine it, it it almost feels like a softening. Like I soften my stance and I become more understanding towards someone that would make a choice that I wouldn't. And I try to become more forgiving, or I find myself becoming at least more open to what they did. That can apply to assisted suicide, that can apply to committing certain crimes, you know, even where you're just like, okay, people read The Punisher. Do you know The Punisher? No. Okay, so The Punisher is a comic book hero, not quite a hero. I I would say an anti-hero, unlike Batman, who does not kill, does not hurt. The Punisher is all about basically vengeful pain infliction against criminals because of his tragic background. And he is known as the more radical, dangerous, violent of the superheroes or comic book heroes that are out there. And he's much darker and his actions are far more questionable. And he's often discussed as this kind of like, okay, so is he a situation that approves of vigilanteism, violent vigilanteism? And I think that in some sense, like, I don't want to say good, but he belongs artistically in the world. I like seeing a character like that represented for people to, I don't know, get their fantasies out, imagine themselves in these situations, because you've probably seen this as a therapist. People keeping their feelings inside often that doesn't go well. No, you know, like people being able to cycle out thoughts and fantasies and talk about them or visualize them, experience them on some level, oftentimes it works as a release valve, I think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think it too, it's so easy to think of things as good and as bad or you know, good or evil. And I'm thinking of House of Dragons right now. We're following Can't Tell me second season. I haven't seen the second season.
SPEAKER_02I've only seen the first.
SPEAKER_03All right, let's ha talk about how uh Game of Thrones.
SPEAKER_02Uh you can only talk up to season four. I'm a book person. Oh my god. Okay. Sorry. You can talk about breaking bad if you want.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. So let's talk about breaking bad, where you know, you have this professor who's this good, straight-laced guy who descends into darkness and becomes this anti- He sells meth. Yeah. I know, but in the beginning, you're like, okay, I get your reasons. Like, I'm with you here, I'm with you here, I'm with you. And you're really good at making it. So I'm with you. Then he starts doing things, and you're like, okay, I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm with you. And then in the end, you realize that you have descended with him as well. And it helps you have empathy for how people get to the place that they get to, oftentimes, if it's a villain arc. And that's an exciting place to be when you can understand another human's moral quest and end up with them and say, okay, you have chosen a path that maybe I would not choose, but I understand how you got here. And I think that's a very exciting feeling to have.
SPEAKER_02I think it's an exciting feeling to have. There is a kind of argument to be made for when is it more moral to not have empathy for certain terrible people and do the hard task of going to war with them, for example? Uh, that like that question is completely valid. But it's also interesting because it's like, when do stories actually impact reality? And should that affect what is put out there? And we actually, in a data-driven way, we don't really know. There there was a whole crisis, I remember, in the late 90s. I don't quite remember the year that um horrible tragedy, Columbine shooting happened. But I don't know if you remember this, but video games and singer Marilyn Manson were blamed for influencing the boys who did the shooting. And everyone was talking about like, are they responsible? I don't think so. I don't think so at all. You know, uh hor horrible things are done by people that are truly sick in the head. We always want to blame the art for their actions. When we should just be blaming them, in my opinion. That's a little, I feel like I'm saying something maybe controversial, but I wouldn't blame video games or Marilyn Manson.
SPEAKER_03Right now with dark romance, where people are saying girls are now romanticizing stalker-like, rough, covetous, obsessive love, and that it's impacting them romantically. I don't necessarily buy into that at all. No. I think that's just again another way of suppressing women's desires. No, you have to deal with them. You have to face them. The truth is, many women go through abusive, obsessive, controlling relationships.
SPEAKER_00And I think without the books. Exactly. Exactly. They don't need the books to get the stalker.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And you read these books and it helps release some of those feelings. It helps them take power back over their trauma. And then it helps them, you know, recover from that and take pack their power of like things that they do find sexually arousing. And so art comes from somewhere. It's coming from a human experience. Just because you're not saying it doesn't mean that it's not there. It's actually better to talk about it so people can deal with those emotions and not express them in a really unhealthy way. Leader.
SPEAKER_02Now that we're speaking about romance books, I think that romance books, there are certain genres that people feel very strongly about having some sort of moral ending. For example, I know that I know there's kind of a controversy over it. I hear it all the time about male leads and dark romances or just romances where they say like male leads can do no crime too big and they're still like I think that's wrong. I think that there are certain taboo actions, crimes that a male lead can take. It's because there's a happy ending. There's an expectation of a happily ever after at the end that holds writers back from creating truly realistic male leads, even in dark fantasies, I think. Where that happily ever after kind of binds you to saying, Well, who deserves a happily ever after? Does this man, does this woman, do they deserve to be happy at the end of this book? Like, if he's a rapist, do you want to give him a happily ever after? Is that an acceptable ending? And as like as someone that's writing a romance right now, like I wouldn't do it. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but like, like, and I mean like a true example of it. Not someone that is involved in consensual rape play in a dark romance where he asks if it's okay, you know, they have a conversation about it. Like, because that is often happening in these dark romances, I think.
SPEAKER_03So a lot of publishers in romance will not accept novels where the male lead is cheating or has cheated, because apparently a lot of women readers will not forgive that. That's incredible. I ran into that issue with one of my books. Wow. Like that my male lead was cheating, even though it was a dark romance. Another thing that I found unforgivable, I had a hard time coming back from I would have a hard time with that too.
SPEAKER_02Just so you know, the cheating thing. I mean, I would have a hard time as the author being told you you have to cut that out. I'd be like, uh, I mean, it takes away from the realism. Yeah. It takes away like a major dynamic between your two leads that I think is interesting.
SPEAKER_03Totally. I I love shows that explore these types of topics. You know, shitting happens all the time in relationships. And can the couple come back from it? You don't know. That's fun for me to read about. It's fun for me too. I'll talk to an outlander. Uh, have you seen that or read that? I've read the first book and I've seen some episodes from the first season. Okay. So when I read the first book and you get to the scene where Jamie is forced to spank his wife, Claire, and not just like fun little spanking, he has to beat her to the point where she cannot sit down on the bench. And he has to because his clan, the other Highlanders and his group will not respect her or something, or she had done something to endanger their lives and she had to be punished. I don't remember. It's been so long. Pinky. Yeah. So he's he beat her and cries, and then she can't sit down afterwards. And his men kind of laugh at her and taunt her for this. And I remember being so enraged and hating Jamie. After that, I was like, I cannot support this love. The rest of the book I never forgave him, even though she did. Wow, I never forgave him.
SPEAKER_00Incredible. Well, sure, that's the reader's prerogative. They don't need to. People can hate books. People can hate what they read.
SPEAKER_02Well, what I mean is like a a book can make you really angry, and it's okay. Like I've read books, seen movies that have made me I raped, made me deeply uncomfortable. And I still think that they're good. They should be made, put out. Like I wouldn't, as the as the viewer and the reader who hated the book, if I had the chance to stop it from being put out, I wouldn't stop it. That's my deeply held belief. I think that basically almost everything should be put out there. I I I I might that might be a little radical for some people. Like I'm certain that there are listeners that are sitting back being like, I can already think of like 10 examples of things that absolutely do not belong in this world. And I'm like, I know, I I see what you're saying, but in most instances, if there's an argument for it to be art, it should be out there.
SPEAKER_03I think that's a good place for us to stop. We we don't ever try to answer these hard questions. We're just talking about them and like Oh, I answered it. I everyone should be with me. We are not ex. We are just, you know, posing these questions and working with you. So yeah. That said, let's move on to throwing a tomato, where in this segment we read one or two star reviews to show you that no matter how popular you are of a book or of an author, you're gonna have people that are gonna crap all over your work and that you should keep faith in what you write.
SPEAKER_02I have a really good one and it's on topic today. You can go first if you want to, but I'm really excited.
SPEAKER_03I want us to, in keeping of theme with our wait, what? I want us to have a little experiment where we do not read the star rating right away. We just read and then guess what the star rating is, and then we decide which one do we think was more valuable.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I think mine are gonna be pretty clear. I got I have two, they're really short.
SPEAKER_03Mine are screwed too. I'll guess for you first. So this is uh Fruit of the Flesh by Ivy Ophelia. I read this book, it was very beautiful. The rating is Vibe, Gothic standalone. I was entertained. Five stars.
SPEAKER_02Three stars. Oh, I don't understand that. Like all of those descriptions are good. Like, what was your problem with it? Why did you knock off two stars and not include your explanation?
SPEAKER_03So, which one do you think was more valuable in this instance?
SPEAKER_02The stars or oh, obviously the description.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because it had more information, you know. And she didn't feel like it was necessary to share anything past that. The only negativity that she shared was in the stars. But that gives me no explanation of what the negativity was for, totally. Or maybe she rated it three stars because it was great. Yeah. I know some people interpret stars as like three means good, four means great, and five means out of this world. Right. And it's just like I interpret the stars, I interpret three as the C, like a C average, which my parents would have been so upset with me for if I had come home with a C when I was in school. A C was unacceptable. A C was the equivalent of an F. It was equivalent of a two-week grounding for me. So yeah. No, C C is no good. So that's that's what a three star is to a lot of people. But other people are like, oh, three stars?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that's adequate. It's a good book. You should buy it.
SPEAKER_03I would value this person's review much more if it was just the content and not the stars.
SPEAKER_02You know what? I think we just need to agree on what it means. Everyone in the world needs to hold hands and go, three stars means adequate.
unknownBuy this book.
SPEAKER_02Hands across America. Let's just all say it at once. Mine was for uh Machiavelli's The Prince. Okay. In keeping with the controversial books and whether they should be out in the world and whether they did more harm than good. Oh, I love it. Uh, okay. So I have two. And one was because I found the first one funny, and then the other one, you can guess what they are. So the first one was, ew, self-serving theories of tyranny for personal gain are so not hot. I loved it. One star. Oh, yeah, definitely one star. And then the other one was, okay, dude, have you tried being nice? One star. One star. They're all one star. I was just thinking, like, it's it was just funny to see these reviews from now of, I don't know, this book was written like the 1500s as like political advice and political philosophy. Like, I love saying ew.
SPEAKER_03Do it. I also value the content of those reviews more because I'm very intrigued by the ew one. And I'm like, hmm, that's a very interesting topic. I want to read that and see what that's about. I value that much more than the one star.
SPEAKER_02There were other single stars that were like, I just couldn't get into it, which also made me laugh because it's not meant to entertain. At least it's not meant to entertain a general audience. It's meant to educate an interested audience and like someone who's already interested in political theory and how to manipulate people. That's who's reading it, and they're gonna get through it fine. So I just like I was just kind of laughing to myself. This this book should not be reviewed by modern readers, it should just exist.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Anyway, I I find it really funny. Yeah, that's hilarious. Thank you for engaging in very lively debate today.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and we we just came on here just to talk and chat. I don't know how we do it. I know, I know. It's funny running into you here. It's almost like it's been pre-planned.
SPEAKER_03Oh, and I would like to make an appeal to our listeners. We've been made aware that it's important for us to have reviews on our listening platforms, such as Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's important for our ratings. So if you are a listener and you like listening to us, please consider leaving a review. Anything above three stars will be acceptable.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, anything above.
SPEAKER_03You give me a three star, I'm gonna be grounded for two weeks. So it's not gonna be good.
SPEAKER_02Oh no. Well, it's gonna be your agent doing it this time.
SPEAKER_03But thank you so much for listening, and we will see you back here next week on Page Fright. Like and subscribe. You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at pagefrightcontact at gmail.com.
