Page Fright

Horror & Ghost Stories & Book Deals, OH MY!

• Sydney Kain and Liza Petrov • Season 1 • Episode 30

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In this episode, Christa pulls back the curtain on her inventive process, showing how she crafts chilling stories that blend the absurd with the terrifying, all rooted in real human emotion.
You’ll discover how she masterfully combines high-stakes psychological terror with laugh-out-loud moments that flicker like ghostly whispers in the night. Christa shares the surprising origins of her hauntingly clever ideas—like faking a supernatural event to escape toxicity—and how her personal experiences influence her spooky storytelling. We break down the delicate balance she strikes between realism and absurdity, making her horror feel both believable and masterful.

Buy her Book: https://bookshop.org/shop/pagefrightpodcast




SPEAKER_02

So a lot of authors think that once you have a book deal that that's it. It's kind of like the same thing of when once you have an agent, that's it. You've made it, no other worker. Once you get the book deal, that's it. There's no other worker. You're in it now. And is that true? Like once you have a book deal, do the rest of them just come very easily? I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_03

I know, me too. You got a big catch.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. I could not believe it when she responded to my DM.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Yes. I mean looking. I'm looking, I'm looking at her bio and man, Krista Carmen. Very impressive. Yes. I know. And do you want to read her bio and so everyone can get really excited like us? Yes. But first, I just want to say, like, horror readers get ready for an interview with an author that if you haven't read her, you're going to fall in love. And if you have, then it's a treat. You get to meet her on our uh podcast. Okay, so uh we're gonna be interviewing Krista Carmen today, and uh I'm just gonna read you a little bit about her life. Krista Carmen lives in Rhode Island. She is the Bram Stoker Award-winning and three-time Shirley Jackson Award-nominated author of The Daughters of Block Island, How to Fake a Haunting, and Beneath the Poet's House, as well as the indie horror book award winning Something Borrowed, Something Blood Soaked, the Bram Stoker Award nominated Through the Looking Glass and Straight into Hell, Orphans of Bliss Tales of Addiction Horror, and co-editor of the Arialis Award nominated We Are Providence and the Australasian Shadows and Dittmar Awards nominated Monsters in the Mills. She has a BA from the University of Pennsylvania, an MA from Boston College, and an MFA from the University of Southern Maine, where she now teaches creative writing. When she's not writing, she keeps chickens, uses a Ouija board to ghost hug her dear departed beagle, and sets out on adventures with her husband, daughter, and bloodhound golden retriever mix. Wow, that's a mix. Most of her work comes from gazing upon the ghosts of the past, or else into the dark corners of nature, those places where whirls of bark become owl eyes and deer step through tunnels of hanging leaves and creeping briars only to disappear. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

What a bio. Yes, I'm so impressed. Well, I cannot wait another second. Let's go ahead and invite her on. Let's do it. Well, we are so excited to have you on today. Um I've said this a million times, but I'm gonna say it again. I'm such a huge fan of your work and of your books and of your writing. You have a way of making it lyrical while also keeping it very relatable in like this upmarket way, which by the way is like one of the top genres of 2026 that people are looking for. This is a rising genre this year. So I was hoping you could tell for our listeners that haven't read the book what How to Fake a Haunting is about.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And thank you again for having me. I'm so thrilled to be here, and I'm thrilled that you enjoyed the book. Okay, so how to fake a haunting is about a woman, Laney, who is married to a man named Callum, and he is, as I describe it, like an alcoholic but not on paper. So he, you know, holds down a great job. He's not, you know, really suffering from any outside consequences from his drinking, but inside the house, things are just a mess. And she really wants to divorce him. But he has a very influential family in Newport, Rhode Island. And so she's basically been told by his family that if she is to try to divorce him, she will not only not get half custody of her daughter, but no custody at all. Uh, and so she and her best friend come up with a plan to stage a haunting at the house so realistic that it drives Callum away. Uh, and then of course things do not go exactly as they planned.

SPEAKER_02

I like how there's also like humor in it. There is, was that intentional to add like the dark comedy piece of it?

SPEAKER_01

So I don't think like overtly intentional, but as I was writing it, it's it's like just one of those things, right? Like whenever there's such high emotion, I mean, so you just sometimes can't help but see the absurdity in it. It's like, I don't know, it's like I I really would dig into those, you know, arguments and fights between her and her husband, and and just, you know, sometimes the absurd and the dark humor just kind of presented itself. Um, so yeah, I think it just kind of naturally arose.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I guess like the knowing it's not real on those certain parts, and then his reaction to it was so dramatic and hysterical. I was constantly chuckling to And you you kind of want him to suffer, so you're like like kind of laughing at him. It's it's an it's a really unique way of writing that.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I mean, I I feel like there's like an element of that like good for her kind of thing where you're like, she's gotta enjoy this a little bit. I mean, he's basically been torturing her for, you know, several years into their marriage now, and you know, she's having a little bit of she's having more fun than she expected.

SPEAKER_03

And often the most successful horrors have a little bit of relatable comedic feeling to it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because that's life, right? Like sometimes, you know, you're on a way your way to a funeral and everything sucks and is miserable, but like something absurd happens and you find yourself laughing until there are tears rolling down your face. It's just like that's the weirdness of life.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. And what I think you did really well artistically, and this is something that I know a lot of writers struggle with, is how do you get a lot of information to the reader without having to write a bunch of information? And I think you what you did really, really masterfully is with that beginning scene, like when they're leaving, just that whole scene where they're leaving and in the car to when he I don't I don't want to give anything away, but to his actions after they get in the car, that tells the reader everything they need to know. And you're already in like the first, I don't know how many pages that was, like 10, 15 pages, you're like, this guy's got to go. And you do that so well.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I I have a little rule for myself that if something is boring me to write it, then it's definitely gonna be boring to the reader. So that usually it's it's it helps where exposition is concerned, right? So if I find that I'm writing a paragraph where I'm like trying to give background info and it feels really like just not fun on the page, I just delete it all and try to write it as something more dynamic. And I do have to give a shout out to, I believe that opening scene was probably one of the things I reworked the most with like my editor's help. Like we we consciously were trying to make it like a high-stakes opening scene that also was delivering information. So yeah, I'm glad that you thought it worked well.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you nailed it. We're talking about the car crash, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, good. Because it was like way to blow it.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's not a no, it I don't think it's a spoiler because it's like it's the it's the very beginning, and it's also just it's just a concrete way, exactly like you were saying, Sydney, of just showing how far gone their marriage has really become, where he can't even admit in the moment that like he's not safe to drive home. Like the level of denial is just so high that it became it's it's become dangerous. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I I liked how that danger was expressed, like it got to a point of like you really you you reached the unforgivable level, so that the reader is kind of enjoying the revenge aspect later in the book, but it's not so melodramatic and intense that like that's that's kind of a fine line for a lot of authors to walk where you're like, Okay, how can I make this character do something unforgivable? But they can still they don't have to go to jail, you know, they can still get away with it and like it I don't know. I I I thought that that was really masterfully done and a great idea for how to make you dislike him and yet, you know, you can still have the ending of the book that you have. They still have a real marriage that, you know, they have to work through.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And thank you. Right. Thank you for saying all that because the other thing that I tried to do was I mean, in a way, the concept of this book is really ridiculous. And like I've actually been at events where uh, you know, it's more of a a like ups, I was saying upstanding, like a takes themselves very seriously literary crowd where they're they're not totally sure if they're even into horror, but they like my stuff because it like kind of straddled the line a bit. And or it or to people that really liked my first two books that I I mean I still think are like very horror, but people are able to kind of place them a bit more comfortably, if that's the type of reader they are, into a thriller bucket. And then when they hear the concept for this book, there's sort of this like, oh, oh, that's kind of like that's almost kind of silly. Like the idea of faking a haunting is is kind of ludicrous and and absurd again. So what I tried to do was, even though the things that they're doing, when you think about them, like creating a stink bomb to waft through the rafters at your husband to like get him to think the house is haunted on paper is like very silly, but I tried very hard to make it as realistic and like as serious as possible in a way. Like I tried to make the crazy things that were happening be portrayed in like a realistic way, so for better or for worse.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I was putting myself like how would I feel if I was in his position? I'm I'm very afraid. Like, I'm even though I write horror, I'm a scaredy cat. And I would have been afraid if I was him.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah. You would be too. So some of the let's call them practical jokes are really frightening. Like his okay, what happened with his takeout food? That one scene. I was like, my god, if that ever happened to me, I don't know what I would do.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I think a huge part of it too, and this was like the most fun for me to write, was it's usually women that were getting gaslit in horror and thrillers where so it's not even just that the rabbit head was there. Now I'm spoiling it, but spoiler alert. Um I was trying. I know that I just I dove right into that one. But uh it's that by the time he comes back from the bathroom, the situation has changed. And it's the same thing with like the furniture moving or like the smells, you know, being there and then not. And it's that fun that she has with him where it's like, and that's why it worked so well with the concept of like him having a drinking problem, because it would be real hard to do this to somebody that wasn't kind of already on a slippery slope of mental health and substance abuse. Uh, because you know, it would just be harder like to convince them that these things were happening. But to kind of be messing with reality for somebody that's already kind of in and out of like intoxication, uh, it just was very fun to play with. Um and then just in general, like I joke with my husband all the time. I know a lot of ways that you can like freak somebody the hell out.

SPEAKER_03

So that became clear while I was reading this book.

SPEAKER_01

Does is your husband like a little frightened of you? Yeah, very healthily so. Like he's got a healthy fear of me, uh, for sure. But sometimes he gives it back to me. Like if I get too high up on my high horse where I'm like, you know, I've played a couple practical jokes on him, uh, but he'll get me back. He he's like, I we have a chicken coop and uh I have to go out and like shove the chicken coop at night, and he's like snuck out and hid behind the car and like jumped out at me. And then I'm not okay with that. It's too scary. The funny thing about I guess funny thing about me is is like when I get scared, I get like instantly mad. So I'll like, I'll like he'll jump out of me and I'll be Jesus Christ, and then I'll be like, what the it goes from like Jesus Christ, like my heart jumping into my throat to like beep, beep, beep, beep staring at him and and getting all mad. So it's kind of ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02

That's I do the same thing to my husband. I will hide. I mean, I do this like almost daily. Like if I hear him coming, I'll just hide around a corner and I will wait. And I can be very patient. Sometimes if he's in the bathroom, I'll just wait there for 10 minutes, dead silent, was waiting for him to come out, and I will like wonder you like this book.

SPEAKER_01

You know, you have new arts, you have a new arsenal of great.

SPEAKER_03

Having spent the weekend with with you and your husband, I can see this definitely happening.

SPEAKER_02

And it's so much better because he gets so afraid. Like his whole body goes like he gets like the frozen shake, and it's just like it's so rewarding.

SPEAKER_03

I've tried to I've tried to scare my boyfriend before. He is he is a huge horror fan. He has he's read all the stories. He he basically he reads everything. He loves creepy pastas. He he listens to old radio horror stories from like the 50s, like literally everything, every movie. He curates a a a movie festival, private movie festival for us every year. Oh for October. Yeah, it's every day in October. I watch a move I watch a horror movie every day in October every year. Give me the Rex this year when you do it. I want I want in on this. I'll tell you this. The other side of this is if I do try to scare him, it does not work.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. He's yeah, he's got a solid foundation of genocide.

SPEAKER_03

Very, very solid, unfortunately. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02

So how did you get how did you come up with this idea? How did you get inspired? Um then sorry, this is like a three for one. No, it's and you kind of broke the mold. I don't want to give anything away. Your ending is so poetic. And so how did you come up with it? Yeah, controversial. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

So the way I got the idea, you're going, I think, going to enjoy this because it's kind of like what we were just talking about. Uh, and I have permission to tell this story. But uh so my husband and I, he also loves horror movies. We watch basically nothing but horror movies. Uh, and we were trying to pick out something to watch, and he was really adamant about wanting to watch this movie that like I didn't really want to watch, and I caved, and then he fell asleep. Oh no. And I was just like, oh, we spent all this time like going back and forth about what we're gonna watch, and then he fell asleep, and so I was a little annoyed, and I grabbed his phone and took a picture of him sleeping because I was gonna like show him in the morning, like, you fell asleep at this time stamp o'clock. And then I don't know what came over me. I think it was a combination of just like it popped into my head, and also I was looking for I had turned in a novel to my editor that they weren't super sold on. It was like a period piece horror, like it was 1950s horror, and it had it was like cult horror, and they weren't feeling it. So I was sort of like getting derailed a bit, and I in my head I was like in a little bit of a panic mode of like, oh, you need a new novel idea, like stap. And so I had this picture of him on his phone, and I was like, huh, wouldn't it be funny if and I texted the picture of him sleeping to my phone, and then I put his phone back on the coffee table. I went in the kitchen with my phone, and then I like stomped back into the living room and like woke him up with my big stomping and my like huffing. And I was like, What do you think this is funny? I was like, Why did you text me a picture of you sleeping? Like, what why did you do that? What do you think you'd be funny? Like, you're the one that fell asleep. And I just like committed to the bit so hard. So, and at first he was just like, first he was disoriented, and then he was like, What are you talking about? But I like wouldn't stop like committed. And I was like, What are you talking about? Like, you texted me this picture, and finally we got to a point where he was like, if you're not messing with me, we even have we either have an intruder or a ghost, and I need to like go get a baseball bat. And then I finally caved and laughed, you know, funny, funny little thing where he was like, haha, you're a jerk. But then the next day I couldn't stop thinking about like, wouldn't it be interesting if you had a reason to keep that? Like, I caved because like I am not trying to haunt my husband out of my house, and I caved and laughed and told him it was a joke. But like, what is going on in the house and the marriage of the people where the woman needs to see that through for some reason? And then the whole thing just kind of like crashed into my lap and I was like off to the races.

SPEAKER_02

That is epic. Wow. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_01

Living with you must be wild.

SPEAKER_03

That is all I can think. I can't, I can't imagine someone playing a prank on me like that. That is amazing. Thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02

There's there's this child, there's this book, I can't remember what it's called, but it's these two hippopotamus, like married hippopotamuses. Is it hippopotami? I don't know, it might be. They their whole relationship is they one of them is scaring the other, and they always say, Have mercy when they get scared. Oh my god, that's so funny. And then at the end, the the wife, it's the husband scaring the wife hippo the whole time. And then at the end, she's like, Well, I'm gonna get you back. And the whole book is him being afraid of her getting him back, and at the end, she gets him really good. And I feel like that that started my love of scaring other people. So you doing this is just so funny. I love it. I love it. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01

So that was the idea, and then your question was the ending. Uh, I also reworked the ending a ton. Like I always knew what the ending, like more or less the ending was always the ending. I knew that's where I wanted it to go. But I did kind of rework a few times, or maybe not a few times. Maybe like there was like one massive overhaul where I just like tightened things up and made it what it is. But yeah, I don't know. I just this book and then the book that I just finished writing a couple months ago. I knew what I wanted, I knew where I wanted things to end up like from the get-go, which was not the case for my first two books. The first two novels that I wrote, I kind of was like, Oh, I wonder where this is gonna end up. But yeah, how to fake a haunting. I knew I wanted it. I mean, the final chapters of like the actual stuff and then the epilogue, even I I kind of like always knew that's where it was gonna land.

SPEAKER_03

I feel like horror is one of those genres. Like some genres, you need to know the ending. Like you can't just be like, where's this gonna end up in a mystery? You need to know who did it. Like there's a lot of plotting work. You can't pants it, you know. But with horror, it's it's one of the genres where and I mean like genre genres, not like high literature where it's I don't know, just about themes and stuff. Like something actually happens and it's fun and it's melodramatic, and all these high stakes and possibly ghosts and paranormal stuff. But it's one of the the entertaining, super entertainment-based genres where like you could go anywhere. It's a super sad ending, or you know, the heroine or the hero escapes, you know, the the darkness, and it's up in the air all the way to the end.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the reader and the writer. Totally agree. There's not really any rules. Like, you know, you can't say that you wrote a romance where the people die at the end, you know, like there's rules for romance, there's rules to high fantasy, there's rules to literary.

SPEAKER_03

This this is an ongoing argument between me and Sydney. It comes up every episode. I know, usually with our guests.

SPEAKER_02

Somehow our guests just bring it up every time. And exactly.

SPEAKER_03

She's a little rebel in the romance genre. She wants to write a romance that doesn't have a happy ending, and I'm like, well, that's impossible. That is not a romance. So well, it's not that's just that's that is drama or some other genre with a strong romantic subplot. That is what it is. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like, just just let me tell her. I feel like I feel like romance is sending a wrong message by saying it always has to end happily. Sometimes romance has a different purpose. So we could have a sub-genre of happily ever romance, but why does it get to dominate the whole genre?

SPEAKER_01

I'm I'm like there for that. I also think it tells a lot about the person who wants to write something like that. Because, like, I mean, in a weird way, based on what you just said, like I could almost say that how to fake a haunting is a romance because of where it ends up. It's about a couple in a romantic relationship. Things go really south and sour, but like they come to a place that is way happier than like you think it might end up. Um I also do love, I mean, I think I think what I said earlier definitely still stands. Like, there are rules because a huge portion of the reading population ex has expectations and they a lot of times want those expectations met. I am definitely a reader that loves when stuff is like shifting mid-book and I have no idea what I'm reading. My favorite horror film is Martyrs. I don't know if you guys have seen that one. It's like an extreme French film.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. It's very all French films are super they're so extreme.

SPEAKER_01

It's dark. Oh my god. It's very dark. But I love that movie so much because the first time I watched it, I felt like I was like and well, obviously it has to be earned, right? You can't just be like, we're in a western and now we're in a ghost story. And like but Martyr starts off as um Almost like you think you're watching something supernatural. And then it does veer a little bit into I, you know, people call it torture porn, but I mean it's it's it it works with the plot. It's not gratuitous.

SPEAKER_03

European extreme violence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then where it ends up is like cosmic horror. And you I just love when something does different things and you get I just feel like you get way more than you bargained for.

SPEAKER_02

That's how I felt about like Widows Bay and something very bad is gonna happen. I feel like they touch on all those different ones and it gives you a ride that you just weren't expecting, and it's more exciting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. This is not fine. No, we will have to. Yeah, but I love it. Uh something very bad is going to happen. I thought that was great.

SPEAKER_03

It's clear to me that you two are horror writers and uh not romance writers because romance readers want the same ride every time. Yeah, it's it's about fantasy and taking you away from reality, not putting you into reality. And there's so many places in literature and writing where you can delve deep into realistic marriage and divorce. Like a lot of the people reading it are like, I'm going through my own realistic marriage and divorce. I want to find out about a couple that are meant to be and everything goes right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I'm I I'm also not a big romance reader. So like Me neither. I don't think about these things often. So like hearing you say all that, I mean, it makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I actually told my agent this this shows you how well she knows me. I said, you know what I would love to do? I'd love to challenge myself to write a romance. And she's all, oh yeah, definitely something dark. And I was like, no, no, no, like a romance. She's all, yeah, but it would be very dark and it would probably be like, that's why I booked you. And she's like, Why don't you stay with your brand?

SPEAKER_03

That's right. Yeah, very, very kindly being like, no.

SPEAKER_02

So tell us, you know, you first of all, how you decided that you were a horror writer, and do you plan on shifting genres at any point?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, the really short, easy answer to those questions are like I always knew there wasn't gonna ever be anything else that I was. And no, I don't plan on switching genres. I have to unpack that a little bit more. I mean, I always just I I l I will read everything, and and sometimes I love like my favorite book of all time is A Little Life, which is like not horror. It's like a drama, character-driven, you know, lit literary work. And I love historical, I love thriller mystery, but I'm just drawn to like the darker, more extreme reading and writing. Every time I e like anytime I even get an idea and it's it might start off, okay. I'll give you a great example that'll just illustrate this way more than me talking can. So I have this idea in my head, this little like seed of an idea for months, maybe even a year or more. And it was just this idea of like women escaping to a place in their head when something got really bad or traumatic. But if they were, if women were experiencing this at the same time, they could actually like be in the same place in their head. Like I was seeing it as like a beach. I was like, there's this beach. This is, and and you guys, I'm sure both being writers, like, you know how these ideas work, right? Like it wasn't really a story idea. I just kept envisioning like this beach in my head, and a woman would be on the beach and she'd like see other women like way up or way down the beach, and she wouldn't know like where she was or what was going on. And it was like this place that they were going to in their head when like something traumatic was happening to their bodies. And it probably didn't even get like that dark, it wasn't even like maybe necessarily traumatic, it was just like this place in these women's heads, and they can be in the same place. And I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do with it. And I would like I I remember uh starting to try to write something, and I didn't really know where it was going, and it was just kind of this like sketch of of this place and these women, and then I got invited to write for an anthology about werewolves. It was a women in horror werewolf anthology. Cool. And it like then I was like, the place is not a beach, that's kind of boring. The place is a clearing in the woods, and when something traumatic is happening to these women's bodies in real life, they can retreat to this place in their mind and they make their way closer and closer to the clearing, and eventually they get there and the light of the full moon hits them and they turn into werewolves, and then they turn into werewolves in their corporeal bodies and like rip the men that are like assaulting or traumatizing them to shreds. And that's a very like broad strokes of you know, the story obviously is like more eloquently done than that, but like so. To me, it was like I have this weird idea and I don't know what it is. Oh, it needed werewolves. Like somebody had to die in the end. Yeah, like there needed to be like body horror and ripping and like howling and creatures and darkness and full moonlight, and I was like, oh, that's what I was missing. So I just feel like any good idea I have, I just am built to explore it via a horror lens.

SPEAKER_03

I am going to make my boyfriend watch this episode and watch you telling that story because literally, I don't write horror. I write like I write historical fiction, I write romance. I'm I'm very interested in writing dramas about like two people arguing about their divorce in a room. Like that's what I'm like very rounded. And whenever I pitch a story to my boyfriend, he's like, Yeah, but wouldn't it be better if there was a werewolf in it? Like, I have an idea for your story. The characters should secretly be finding out that there are werewolves and they exist in the world.

SPEAKER_00

I know, now we're a werewolf. That's hilarious. I mean, I don't know. I don't think he's wrong. Sometimes we improved by a werewolf.

unknown

I agree.

SPEAKER_01

No, but it's just really funny. Like, in all fairness, too. Like, I love a good straight up historical fiction novel. Oh historical fiction. But they will all be better with werewolves. Yeah. I mean, it's gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_02

There's gonna be blood, there's gonna be lots of high stakes, it's gonna be crazy. Yep, yep. That's my preference as well. And that story, by the way, I I want to read that.

SPEAKER_01

That sounds really good. It's I had a copy somewhere around here. It was it actually it's edited by Stephanie Whiteovich and Lindy Ryan, and they just got it was nominated, their editing work was nominated for a Bram Stoker Award for anthology. It's a kid. Wow. I read it and like I've I like my story in it, and I'm like, my story isn't even in the top. Like every story that I read in that, I was like, wow, you ladies all brought it to the table. It's a great anthology.

SPEAKER_02

That is so cool. So you you and I are publisher sisters. So talk to us about how you got. I mean, most of our listeners are writers and are dreaming to be trad published. So tell us how you got there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I just I also wanted to be trad published, and I just told myself I was going to not give up until it happened. And I think the best advice, I don't know if people are looking for advice. Not that I, you know, everybody gets to a place in a different route in a different way, but um, I just and this is kind of an annoying answer, right? And I acknowledge that because this is this is a very hard thing to do. But I just forced myself to get really thick skin and to not take it personally when I got rejections and just like took it as a little speed bump instead of like a you know, it's it's hard to not when you get you know, you work on a book for two, three years sometimes. I sometimes more. I before I was published and used to putting out books, I can do a book a year now, but before it was like two, three years, I would work on these books and you put your heart and soul into it, and then you get nothing but rejection. It's hard to not take it personally. Uh, but I'm like annoying in my resilient, like I'm one of those like the wobble dolls that like they fall down and then they just bounce back up because I just figured it doesn't mean that that project isn't good or that you're not a good writer, that you you just like that one didn't do it. That one just didn't fit or it didn't hit me, it didn't land with the right person. Um, and I just always felt like the quicker you pick yourself up and move on to the next project, the more opportunities you're gonna have. So yeah, I mean, like actual steps-wise, I mean, I just I wrote a bunch of novels early on that I trunked that I never did anything with. I wrote a ton of short fiction. I felt like that's a great way to kind of practice the craft on like a smaller scale and just like get better at all of it, like get better at writing characters that people care about and you know, plotting and craft and the whole the whole gamut. And then I just I did get an MFA. I don't think like every you know, n nobody needs an MFA, but I did use it to feel more confident. So I wrote a bunch of novels early on, and then I focused on short fiction, and then I did kind of have like a lack of confidence in my. I was like, maybe I'm just a short fiction writer. Like those I I had a lot of success publishing short fiction where I was getting acceptances and not with the novels, and I was like, maybe I'm just like not as good at writing novels. But I went and at my MFA, I focused predominantly on novel writing, and my dissertation was a novel, and that's what I got my agent with.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And but then we didn't sell that novel. So the novel that you know I spent years researching, it was kind of like a historical horror of uh literary or sorry, a folklore figure in Rhode Island, and yeah, we weren't able to sell it. And my agent had I also feel like me and my agent are very well suited personality-wise, because I remember what she said to me when we didn't sell that one. She was just like, Go write the next one, we'll sell the next one. And I was just like, Yeah, we'll just go write the next one. A little bit of like convincing myself it'll be okay. But yeah, I mean, I wrote the next one, and that's the one we sold. That was the Daughters of Black Island, and then it just, you know, confidence-wise, and then having a home with Thomas and Mercer was was nice because I got to do I had a two-book deal with them to start, and then I I sold a third one, the How to Fake a Haunting to them.

SPEAKER_03

So I'm curious. Uh, do you think uh with any of these manuscripts that you and your agent have shelved, like, do you think you're ever going to try to like sell them again? Just when the literary trends, like if you've written so much, like literary trends, our last episode was focusing on like the new genre trends that everybody's wanting, and they just seem to change so quickly. So do you think you'll you'll ever try to, you know, get get those old manuscripts out?

SPEAKER_01

I it's a interesting question, and I've been asked it before, and I feel like maybe even like a year or two, definitely two or three years ago, I would be like, yeah, totally. Like they're just trunked for now, but I'm also a bit hard on, like, I always think the best thing that I've written is the last thing that I've written. So it's kind of hard for me to like I loved that first novel that I got with my literary agent or that I got my lit agent with. Um, and there were so many pieces about it that, you know, like I said, like you put your heart so like I put a lot of my heart and soul into that book. Uh just so many elements that I loved about it. I I guess too, like, I don't know. I haven't actually gone back and looked at it in five years. So, like in my head, I'm thinking like it's probably not as good as I'm remembering because I've written how many more books since then, there's no way it would be good enough that I'd be like happy enough to do something with. Oh, but like of course. Yeah, right. I mean, but if I looked at it and I was like happy enough with it, I'd probably still want to rework it a fair amount.

SPEAKER_03

But I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, my thinking is they never.

SPEAKER_03

If if your agent was happy enough to push it and you and you and you got her with it, then yeah, making it a novel. No, it it can't it's not that. It's just like there were publishers at the time that were thinking about market placement. And yeah, whether you know, whether it would work or whatever. I I I hope I hope that uh you can revive these old projects. I'm I'm always rooting for that with other creatives.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I for the faith I will actually get out and dust it off and see how she looks. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, after reading because so I'm not a big horror reader, but I I read your book and I loved it. And I'm just like, well, I can't I can't imagine anything else being bad. I know, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like I feel like you would like the first two books better than how to fake a haunting because they're very much especially the second one is beneath the poet's house and it's very historical. There's a lot to do with Edgar Allan Poe and Sarah Helen Whitman and like old Providence, Rhode Island. So uh it's probably like my most historical book.

SPEAKER_03

After reading this book, I was already on rails to those other ones. So you don't even need to promote them. I don't need to well promote them for the podcast, but I was already there.

SPEAKER_02

So a lot of authors think that once you have a book deal, that that's it. It's kind of like the same thing of when once you have an agent, that's it. You've made it, no other worker. Once you get the book deal, that's it. There's no other worker, you're in it now. And is that true? Like once you have a book deal, do the rest of them just come very easily? No.

SPEAKER_01

No. Um, I so I mentioned that like 1950s cult horror book that was between Beneath the Poet's House and How to Fake a Haunting. My publisher did not want to publish that. So I just put 50,000 words in the metaphorical trunk and moved on to How to Fake a Haunting. And then I wrote another book completely like 90 something that like that book was written. And a current publisher did not want it because it was a little bit weird, like sci-fi body, horror, bit of historical, like kind of all over the place. I don't like it. And we so we took that out elsewhere and did not sell it at all. And so I was like, okay, like it is what it is. Uh, and then went back and wrote something new. And have to be very careful about what I say because this is like very fresh info, but uh like we'll have news about two new books very soon.

SPEAKER_02

Ooh, exciting.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah. But like I think it is important to ask these questions and to hear honest answers because, like, I don't, I mean, are there people that like everything they touch that are just like huge bestsellers and everything they write, their publisher is gonna stand behind them and put it out because they think the readership is gonna be there no matter what. Yes. But for the majority, I think it's it's definitely not like, oh, you get an agent, oh, you get a publisher, like you're set forever. You have to keep like evolving. And if something isn't worth like there's always gonna be stuff that doesn't work, and and it kind of just put me right back to you know, those kind of early lessons of like querying a million agents and not getting anywhere, and then queer, you know, going out on submission and not getting anywhere. So yeah, no, I think uh sometimes you just take a step back and then like regroup and work on the next I always just think like you work on the next project. Like I and again, kind of an annoying answer, but when we my agent and I had the conversation of like, okay, we didn't get anywhere with this book. This was la well, it was the book that was out on submission last year. We had this conversation in like February, and when we made the decision, like we're not gonna do another round and go out on submission to like the next tier down of publishers, we're gonna focus on a new project. I was sad for like six hours, and then and I was really sad. I was really sad. I went on like a moody walk with my dog and like stared at the trees and like tried to make myself cry, but I'm not a big crier. So I was like, oh man, I really sucks, and I didn't have this book and right, yeah. And then I got in bed that night with my little Kindle scribe and started like plotting out like jottenown ideas that I had. And by the time I went to bed at like midnight that night, I had my entire next novel plotted out, and that's the book I just sold. So there's also a lot to be said about like spite writing. Like if like if you just are mad because you didn't sell something, I'm like, I'm gonna show them, I'm gonna write a better book. And I mean, I did, so I can't be that mad about it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh that's I feel like maybe that's a horror thing because I feel like I do almost everything out of spite. I even have like we joke about how I have a list of uh because you know how you have a you have a sub list, you have your query list. I just keep my list of everyone that's rejected me and it fuels me. Your names are all in red in my little black book. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03

I do think that this is kind of this honest answer does give aspiring writers a ray of hope though, because uh one fear that I've seen voiced amongst a lot of writers who aren't agented yet is uh they think that they have to have a perfect track record of being able to sell manuscripts to publishers. Where like the actual relationship with your agent, if your agent is uh good, is that they understand that not every manuscript that you write is going to sell and they're with you for the ride. Yeah. And they and they get that some of them just need to be shelved and you'll you'll put something else out and and then it's their job to sell it. Uh so like I I think that that's kind of a nice thing to know uh for a lot of writers that are about to be agented or newly agented. Because Sydney, you were what what is it called when you're trying to sell the manuscript? On sub. Oh yeah. You were out you were on sub for for a while, and I remember it was an anxious time.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, I was on sub for a full year.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And every day the worst.

SPEAKER_02

I would have said that.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I'm not gonna check my email 479 times today, and then you're like, oh shit, I checked it like 700 times. Perfect.

SPEAKER_03

I was just another just telling me about how she does that. I have to do it. Even when she's not on sub.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's true. When you're a writer and you have stuff out on submission, or or even not, because like you never know, somebody might invite you to something or some opportunity might come. I mean, you guys messaged me and you're like, hey, you want to come on this cool podcast? And I was like, sweet. Uh you never know what like fun little thing is gonna pop up in in your messages. So no, it turns you into an absolute monster that checks your email a hundred million times a day. It's terrible.

SPEAKER_02

I I hope I'm gonna my husband listens to all these, but I'm I'm glad he's gonna hear you say that because he's always asking me, How many times do you check your email today? So I'm glad that you do it too. Four. I checked it four times. That's it. No more. That'll be the day. So I want to switch gears a little bit and ask you, just to kind of stick on the fun horror topic. Have you experienced any paranormal things in your life?

SPEAKER_01

My favorite and least favorite question, because the sad answer is like, not really. Um, I feel like I'm a little I'm like that person that is a little bit cynical and doesn't think that there's necessarily anything supernatural out there to see, but I'm also desperate to be proven wrong. So I'll like like my husband and I got married at the Stanley Hotel, which is where Stephen King stayed when he got the idea for the shining. Fantastic. We've stayed at the Lizzie Board embedded breakfast. I like love to hang out in cemeteries. Like my a friend in town and I will like write in we'll do a writing date in the cemetery. But yeah, so my the other kind of part of this answer is I haven't experienced anything, but also I I also think I'm like a little bit maybe too quick to like snap it off at the like a chop it off at the knees kind of thing where like anything that even is remotely a little bit strange, I'm just like, oh well, there's probably a good explanation for that. I don't know. Like there was um situation a year or two, maybe I think last summer, where I weirdly woke up at like 2 45 in the morning and I had, and I'm not an anxious person, um, you know, aside from like everything we just talked about, right? Like getting anxious about being out on sub and stuff, but like I'm not typically somebody that will be stressed and like and have like the bodily response to it. But like I woke up and I had like, like I couldn't really catch my breath. I had this like rapid heart rate. I it was to the point where I went and I got my day job computer and like logged into my email at three in the morning because I was like, I must have forgotten something really important to do at work. Like something is going on right now. I couldn't figure out what it was. I was up for two hours, couldn't figure it out, went back to bed. And in the morning, I found out that she's fine now. But my sister, or she was fine the next day, really. But like my sister had had a reaction to a medication, like a you know, normal medication, but she just I don't know if like she went in her sauna earlier, like all this weird stuff happened. And she had fainted in her bathroom and like smashed her head through a plate glass, like bathroom vanity, and like really scary stuff. Like her her little boy woke up, and like it was like her husband was out of town, she couldn't get in touch with anybody. Like, so for like the two hours that I was up having this bizarre, like borderline panic attack, she was in like pretty dire straits where she had to like crawl down the stairs, you know, her head. I can't remember if she actually had a concussion. I think she did like, but exactly during the time where I was like up and like, why am I so weirded out right now? And then like super weirdly, a year or two before that, I woke up at like the same time and heard a mocking bird at like three in the morning, and it like freaked me out. Cause I was like, what bird chirps like that in the middle of the night? And I couldn't fall back asleep and had weird anxiety. And I found out that like my grandmother had gone through a similar thing where she was like up and like had fallen and didn't have her her emergency clip and was like struggling. So I mean, I always just say, like, oh, it's probably just a coincidence. But at the same time, when I've told this story to people before, they're like, that's crazy. Like, how many other nights have you like you never have another random night of just being up for, you know, so I don't know. I think I'm I'm quick to write stuff off, but sometimes I've had occurrences like that.

SPEAKER_03

Mine mine aren't as intense. The only one, it can be summed up like really quickly, is that me, my mom, and several of my family members overseas all had like wisdom tooth problems at the exact same time. Like completely separately. We weren't talking to each other. I only found out months later, but I was just like, oh my god, like why? Like everybody had tooth problems at the same time. And this was like four different people like thousands of miles apart.

SPEAKER_01

Have you done any research into like I don't know, like I'm thinking about like teeth and tooth like the symbolism of that?

SPEAKER_03

Like all I know is that if you dream of losing your teeth, you have a secret. That's the thing I've heard.

SPEAKER_01

I like dream of my teeth. Like I've w I wake up a lot like this, thinking that I'm gonna catch my teeth as they're falling out of my mouth because I'm dreaming that my teeth are falling out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, but I don't think that's a common anxiety dream. Okay, maybe I'm more anxious than I realized. We I'm glad you have Sydney. It's a really cool one though.

SPEAKER_02

I saw that you went to the University of Pennsylvania. So I used to live in Philly for seven years. No way. We lived in one of those really, really, really old townhomes. And in that place, I woke up in the middle of the night once and uh my phone just started blasting music at like full loud in the middle of the night at like 3 a.m. Oh, you're already scaring me. Then I always sleep with my room pitch black. I cannot sleep with light on. I woke up one night and my closet door was open, which I'm scared of my closet door being open, so I always close my closet door every single night. It was wide open with the light on, blasting light in my room. And then I've had I've had LASIK I'm not okay with this, Sydney. I've had LASIK now. I have so many, but I'm only gonna tell these in this place. And actually, my family has like a whole history of like your aunt has an haunted house. I know. Yeah, it's it's a whole thing.

SPEAKER_01

But it sounds like you need to write a nonfiction book about all of your family and your own experiences about this, but you gone.

SPEAKER_02

I've had LASIK now, but I used to have glasses, and in that same house where the music in the closet happened, I was in the shower and I saw my husband standing in the hallway, and I asked him something. Um I was like, I just pulled the curtain to the side and I was all, hey, can you I don't know what I asked him. And he just stood there in his white shirt and I was like, Hello, I'm talking to you. And he just stand there and I said again, I was all, you know, said his name. And then he just turned and walked away. And I was all, excuse me. So I turned off the water, got out of the bathtub, like all indignant, like wrapped a towel around myself, and I stomped down the hallway, and we were in a small apartment, all the way out into the living room, and I'm shouting his name, and then all of a sudden the front door unlocks and he comes in. No, I know I know. And I was all, Did you like were you just in here a minute ago? And he was like, No. That's Did you guys look for an intruder? Yeah, man. Like, oh, that would be my first. Did you call 911? I looked all around the house. That was the only way to in and it was locked. And it was locked, and there was no, and it happened so quickly because I got out of the shower all pissed off that he was ignoring me. So uh there was no way. So that really freaked me out.

SPEAKER_01

So that's I don't like this. That's really wild. That would freak that would freak me out. Yeah, I'm gonna- that's also the idea of like a doppelganger really freaks me out. So like if you if it was somebody that looked, I mean, obviously, you know what your husband or your husband looks like, and like that, he would have had this what like I don't know, that's really creepy. Like, not only was it maybe a ghost or an attribute or something, but also that had your husband's body face.

SPEAKER_02

Like well, I this is I didn't have my glasses on and I couldn't really see it all. So I just saw a man standing there looking at me in the hallway. Weird very weirdly. It kind of shocked me when I first saw him, and then I was all, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01

And then Did you look into the history of the house? Like, did somebody die there?

SPEAKER_02

No, I never did. I was I think I was afraid to know because I was stuck behind it.

unknown

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01

Did you stay the night?

SPEAKER_02

Like I mean, yeah. What happened next? I just went on with my life. I mean, these kinds of things. No, you didn't. I wouldn't have gone on with my life. These kinds of things happen to me all the time, like even things in my current house that uh I I won't even I I well, okay, so I do have uh a son, and he came into me one time and said, I'm really pissed off that this woman wasn't saying hi to him. And I was like, I was like, Oh, did you see her outside? He's all no, she was right over there. And he was only three at the time. He said, I was spinning around dancing, and then this woman in a black dress walked by me and I said hello to her, and she didn't say hi back. And I walked out and I was like, show me where. And it was like behind our couch. And he said, and he said, Mult, he was really mad. And I said, Well, maybe she didn't hear you. He's all no, she heard me because she looked at me. And I was like, I was like, Well, maybe she was busy.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. What do I say to this right now? Oh my god, that's wild. Uh when my daughter was like two or three, I think two, she told me she was like, Why is there a ghost with a suitcase on the ceiling? And I was like, What? Like, what did you just say? A suitcase? A ghost with a suitcase? No, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Kids freak me out. That's why haunting of Hill House, I think, was you guys freaked me out.

SPEAKER_03

Like, I I'm not ready for this. I wasn't ready for this in the interview.

SPEAKER_01

When you just told the story of the man you saw while in the shower, I weirdly had like total haunting of Hill House Mike Flanagan vibes, because that's like the kind of it's like the ghost that you see that doesn't really do anything, but like you know that there's there's a reason and they might be back. Something's going on.

SPEAKER_02

I know. And and just the name bent neck lady, like that's exactly what a kid would call it, and it's just so creepy.

SPEAKER_01

Well, so I feel like we came a little bit full circle because, and I'm sure when I say this, you'll see how have you seen have you both seen Haunting of Hill House? Yeah, Haunting of Hill House? Yeah, yeah. Okay. The bent that show in general and the bent neck lady was like very much an inspiration for everything that happens once the mirrors shatter in my book.

SPEAKER_02

Really? Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And also Lake Mungo. Have you guys seen Lake Mungo? Mm-mm. No. Oh, you write that down. And you have to watch Lake Mungo in the dark and don't look at your phones. Like, don't be distracted. Have your phone in another room.

SPEAKER_03

No, I I I watch movies, like I I'm a huge movie person. Same thing. Like I go, I go to a theater that like disallows. Oh good. Okay. I turn on my phone at the beginning of every movie.

SPEAKER_01

Me too. Yeah. But you just, yeah, you don't want to be distracted. You want to watch it and fully immerse yourself in it. And then once you do, write to me on Instagram and tell me how much it freaked you out. Because that's one of the I don't get scared by movies super often, but that is one of the few movies over the last decade that like legitimately unnerved me. And I was like scared at three in the morning when I got up and like had to use the bathroom.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I wish I didn't watch that movie earlier because I is it M-U-N-G-O? Um I M-U-N-G-O, yes. Okay. Yeah, we're gonna watch it go. Well, I have to say, this has been the best hour ever. I'm so happy to exchange ghost stories.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Well, just meeting you and hearing how your brain works. I think that you're a genius. I love your writing. I am so happy that you agreed to talk to us. I literally was dancing when you answered my Instagram message because I had texted Lisa. I was like, Well, I messaged her, we'll see if she responds. And then when you did, I danced around my bathroom and my son said, It's because your podcast is literally so good.

SPEAKER_01

And he's like, Oh my god, I love that. I love the full faith of the young kids and their moms. Like, so yeah. The lady in the black dress agrees with him. Yeah. Well, I didn't even tell you guys this, but I today's my birthday. So I wanted to, I was like, I was like, what better thing to do? I mean, we're gonna like, I've done stuff all day. We're gonna go out and do some stuff tonight, but I was like, because one of my I was talking to one of my writer friends earlier and they were like, What are you doing for your birthday? And I was like, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing a podcast. And they were like, Why are you working? And I was like, I'm not working, it's gonna be great. Because I like peeked around your podcast. I didn't, I I wasn't a listener prior to you messaging me. So not only was I super thrilled that you messaged me because I got to come on and do this, but now I'm like, sweet, now I can listen to all these episodes. But I I peeked around a little bit and I was like listening and I was like, no, it's not gonna be working, it's gonna be so much fun. Right. That means so much to us.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, exactly. That's what we're that's what we're aiming for, for it to just be a casual kind of hangout show for writers and any part of their journey. You have a community and you can just kind of hear everybody having the same problems as you exactly.

SPEAKER_02

And I hope that we can stay in touch and you know if you are either of you are ever in Rhode Island, you have to look me up and go to Actually, this was really funny reading your book.

SPEAKER_03

I literally just went to Newport for a mini romantic vacation. Did you go to the mansions? We went to one of the mansions and we did the cliff walk. We were only there for like it was like a really midi vacation.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but you got to a mansion, so that you saw like the whole kind of setting of the book.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it was really fun. I kept on imagining all the different places because we did the cliff walk like in the fog. Amazing. And I I just imagined my memory is like interspliced with your book, and I was like, oh, this is so much fun. Yeah, yeah, that's so cool. Well, if you come back, yeah, yes, we can go to more mansions. Yes, more mansions. I love it. Actually, before we go, um because you recommended a movie, and I'm a big movie person, did you see Bring Her Back last year? Oh my god, that was my favorite movie of last year. Wait, I didn't see you have to see it. How did you not see it, Sydney? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

This is crazy. You have to. All right, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01

So kind of a little bit like not so much with the genre switching thing, but like we talked about earlier how I love when something surprises me, where it like shifts. I loved that movie so much because and I won't spoil it for Sydney or anybody listening, but they did such a good job with making you think that you knew what was going on, and you hated this one for what she was doing, and you hated her. Like I hated her, and I wanted to like punch her through my TV screen. And then that last scene, that last shot, like broke me. And I was like, I didn't know anything, and I feel so bad.

SPEAKER_00

And I would do anything.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh. So good. It was so good. So freaky. Like, I have to say, the opening, making that video be Russian. I'm Russian, just by the way. I was just like, yes, this would 100% come out of Russia. I just absolutely know. Like this video is 100% what r like some Russian would make.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I can't watch it. I've only seen it once and I wanted to like sit with it for a while, but I think it's time that I rewatch.

SPEAKER_03

Sometimes when movies really freak me out, I just like I can't sleep. And like in that like space in between being awake and not awake, I was just like, I have to go back to sleep, or else I'll let the angel into my head. Like that's what I started to think about. I was just like, I like, I was like, my head is open to to that thing. I like freaked myself out just like with that repeating thought in my head. And I was like, this is my favorite movie of the year because it made me feel that way hours later.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I love too the that's how it freaked you out later because that's such like a that's like such a mark of a good movie or or any novel film, any art like that. Because it's not just like a jump scare where you're like, oh, I'm afraid of like like something under my bed. Or, you know, I'm just like I have this general sense of fear and unease. Like it made you think of I've opened my head in that like liminal space between sleep and wakefulness. That's what Lake Mungo did to me, where when I was I don't want to spoil it. That's why I recommended it. Yeah. When I was coming down the bathroom, like when I was walking down my hallway to go to the bathroom, I envisioned something from the movie. I will say as much as I can without spoiling it, but when you get to the part of the movie where something is rushing towards somebody else, you'll think of what I was terrified of in my bathroom. I was like afraid of something rushing me and it just freaked me out.

SPEAKER_03

So I love that you have to feel I'm gonna be watching this movie this week. Because right after this, I'm gonna I'm gonna march upstairs to my boyfriend's office and be like, have you seen like Mungo? He'll probably say yes and then and then say, Okay, we can watch it. Let's do it. How amazing, yes.

SPEAKER_02

We'll all have to trade horror movie recommendations because we all love to watch it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_02

Well, uh thank you, listeners, and we will see you back here next week on Page Fright.

SPEAKER_03

Like and subscribe!

SPEAKER_02

You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at pagefrightcontact at gmail.com.

Head Shot

Sydney Kain

Host