Is it Okay to Want Fame as an Author?

Is it okay to chase fame as an author? This episode tackles that big question head-on. Join Sydney Kane and Liza Petrov as they chat about the allure of success and the pressure to conform to industry expectations. While fame can bring recognition and opportunities, it also risks overshadowing your artistic integrity. Even worse, it can feel like a drug, offering highs that leave you wanting more while leaving you burned out and uninspired.

Whether you're just starting out or already established, this episode offers a thoughtful look at the complexities of fame and how to navigate them without losing yourself.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm Sydney Kane. And I'm Lisa Petrov. And you're listening to Page Fright, where we talk about writing craft, the ins and out of the publishing industry, and our own personal journeys as authors. So let's dive in. I have exciting news. Okay, what is it? I w officially went out on sub yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Ooh. Okay, wait. I'm aware of so many different little projects of yours. I know. I'm dabbling.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I'm always dabbling.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Which one is this?

SPEAKER_04 0:30

I forget.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

So this is my horror book that we're that I'm pitching as like a three-book deal, like three standalone horrors. Very exciting. Very exciting.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Okay. So here's uh here's a question that I have for you. Now that you have one uh one book sold. Oh two books. You have two books sold. Do you think that it's gonna be, you know, is it still just a crapshoot for how much time you have to wait for someone to like say yes or no? Yeah. It's just kind of like it's totally still totally up in the air. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

It's such a you think it'll be easier. I guess it's less pressure this time because I've already sold two books. So I'm like, all right, whatever. I still have two books that are coming out, so I don't feel like this this horrible desperation that I used to feel, but it's still a total up in the air, low, low chance. I mean, I just saw a stat this morning that publishers, each editor within the publishing house and imprint, each editor is getting between 50 to 200 manuscripts a week. Wait. Oh, from from agents, I understand. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

50 to 100 a week. To 200. To 200. Is that insane? So basically, so they call the uh query letters to agents, just like straight to them the slush pile. Uh, and you have to go through that, and then you have to go into another slush pile. Yes, yes. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Oh, I know, I know be useful. And then think about how backlogged they are. I mean, you really have to so when you submit, when you go on submission, there's it's like another uh query letter, but in like a pitch form. And you ha it's like the same thing. You have to grab them with that pitch letter. And if you don't, it's going straight, like staying in their inbox and they're not gonna read it for like seven months.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Can I just say you have to grab them? Like just hearing that, I'm like, so basically it's you have to be lucky. Because like you can write something absolutely stellar, but if the person that happens to be opening the email at that moment in their day is not grabbable by your stellar opening, like they might be grabbable by a much shittier, different opening. You know what I mean? It's so dependent on the moment.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

You it don't beat yourself up. Try to be as good as you can be and follow as much advice as you can. You know, I think that there are some basics uh about writing a query letter, opening like how it should open, which we reviewed in our last episode on writing a query letter and pitching your manuscript. Um there are some basics that you can follow to make it pithy and and and grab somebody, but that's not gonna be a 100% guarantee. And you shouldn't beat yourself up if you're not getting responses from people that you like because, you know, it's some of it's out of your control.

unknown 3:47

I know.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

And think about if you're getting that many submissions and then you open up your email and you click on it, and maybe you're tired and you're like, ugh, and you read it, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you're it's so dependent on their mood.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like the the topic that they want to push, you know, the type of plot that they want to uh get involved in and it because I don't know, so much of it is based on taste.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yes. And they're looking for specific things that are selling right now. So they're gonna go straight to what is this genre, subgenre, tropes. Is this what I'm trying to push right now? And if a if it aligns with their manuscript wish list, they're trying to build out their list, they're gonna go with it. Even if you have an amazing idea or amazing manuscript, if that's not what they're trying to grow their list with right now, they're not gonna read it.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really hard. Well, so is there anything that you know like from the inside now that agents do to get out of their slush pile? Like, because I'm assuming that they like they send out your manuscript and everything, but I'm thinking that they're probably trying to get lunches with editors, make relationships with editors, and talk about their different clients and saying, hey, you really need to check this out. Is that is that something that agents do?

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yeah, they um I know my agent specifically will she's constantly going to lunches and phone calls, and she'll soft pitch things. Like she'll tell them, like, oh, what kinds of things are you looking for? And like, oh, I have an author who's working on this or that. And I know she was soft pitching my horror a few months ago, and um she didn't know really what my horror was about at that point, but so she but she was still soft pitching it. And then what was crazy is we went on sub and that person remembered her soft pitch and said, Um, oh, I remembered this and I'm excited to read. So she's creating these relationships, she creates buzz, and then um she'll do the cla the classic, if we haven't heard from them, you know, the nudge, the nudge, the nudge, the nudge, and the consistent nudging, you know, every six weeks until they finally will be like, okay, I'm gonna read this or not, but I'm gonna give you an answer.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

You know, it's funny, uh the the nudge and how scary it is to ask for someone to pay attention uh to a pitch that you made, like just pay attention to you. There's so many people out there that are like, oh my God, isn't nudging just rude? Isn't it just showing that you're needy? And like I would say that it's business, it's not dating. It's it's it's something else that I think people kind of get conflate those emotions. Like salespeople, every time I meet a salesperson, they are shameless, they're completely shameless, and in some ways it's freeing. Yeah. And I want to channel a little bit of that when I market myself just to say, like, this isn't me and my soul that's on the line. Like, I'm I'm trying to get you to taste this product pretty much. I'm I'm just trying to get you to pay attention and that's it. That that's the end of what I'm trying to do. I don't need anything more than that. And asking you to pay attention to it is not a bad thing. So I really respect your agent for the nudge.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Yes. And I'm happy I don't when I used to have to do the nudge, I would always feel so awkward doing it. Yeah. I'm so happy I don't have to do the nudge anymore.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

How would you hear from you? Yeah, how would you how would you nudge? Like what would you how would you craft that email or call or what?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Um I would just say, well, with agents, I never nudged um unless until I got an um offer of rep. And then I said, um I just want to let you know I've had an offer of rep. Um I know you still have my work, and I would very much love to, I don't know, have you read it and give back to me and let me know. And here's your date of expiration.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Well, then that's a really great thing for authors who haven't queried before to know. It's the the second, the second you get any traction anywhere, you need to use that against anybody else that hasn't given you the time of day yet, because them not giving you the time of day has not been a complete evaluation of your worth and a decision made. It has been ignoring you. Yes. And for specific reasons, because they have other people knocking on their door. They have to pay attention to other things. And once you have traction somewhere else, that shows that there's interest in you and there's reason for them to try to for for them to pay attention to you.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Exactly. Yeah. And and then they have to move you up the pile. Like maybe you were six months down in the slush pile and they're like, oh, gotta move this one up and evaluate it quicker. So once you have buzz and once you have attention, that's the best, best thing to happen to you because now people have to make decisions quickly. Yeah. Which can be good or bad depending on their mood, but um it's still most things are.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

And it's also good because it helps you slow down. The second you have interest from an agent, it helps you slow down and and say, Do I have to go with this agent? Or can I knock on the door of one of my first choices? Being strategic, keeping your head on your shoulders and saying, Okay, now that I have this, how do I use it? You don't owe the person that offered you something anything yet. You can go talk to other people. Again, it's just business. Like that's that's that's how you should play it. That's my that's why.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

And that's expected. Like all the agents know as soon as you get an offer, it's expected for you to go and talk to the other agents. So no feelings hurt.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

I'm assuming that's what publishing houses and editors expect from your agent as well with your manuscript when you were on set. Exactly. So just gotta try and build buzz. So so it just went on today?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yesterday. Last night. Yesterday.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

It's been less than 24 hours. I've been on submission. Uh how do you feel?

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Because I remember the first time you were you were super excited. And then as time wore on, which it naturally does for a lot of authors, you were like, I don't know. Like, how are you feeling this time?

SPEAKER_01 10:47

I feel refreshed, renewed, excited. Um, this is a new genre for me. So I'm excited to see where it goes. And I told my agent this morning, I said, I'm in this for the long haul. I'm ready to strap in and be in this for a year if it takes a year. So let's do this again. Nice. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Um, well, uh should we move on to our wait what? Yes, I think we should. I think we have a great one today. Yes. Um, so I have been thinking about this for myself recently. And, you know, and actually I just to call out a commenter um from one of our much earlier episodes, uh, this person uh did not like how we I feel like they were accusing us of not being like true artists because we were talking about the possibility of celebrity as writers. And, you know, that kind of hit home for me because I'm very committed to the deep concepts that I want to talk about. I kind of get pulled into uh deep thematic uh conversations with myself when I do my writing. And that pushes the writing more into a literary sphere than maybe I should start in. And I've been thinking, like, okay, so what if, you know, down the line or in order to even enter the industry, some some part of it is like some part of the industry tells me, either an agent, publisher, editor, it's like, hey, we think that you would be a fit for something more commercial, or we're looking for something more commercial. Um, would you be willing to write something more commercial? And I want to, and I know that that is a reality for a lot of authors. I have several friends who uh, you know, have been tasked with writing things that are more commercial than they necessarily want to, or stay away from subject matters than they want to. Uh and yeah, I wanted to talk about the realities of that, uh, but also how we can process that as artists, uh, people who feel like there's integrity, there's a certain kind of artistic integrity to what we want to accomplish in our writing. And does that matter when you want to be successful?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah. I think I have multiple sides of me. I have the businesswoman in me, and then I have the artist in me. And it's hard because once you are an author with a publisher, you're not just writing for yourself anymore. You have these business deals, and they have certain ways of branding you, or they have certain expectations of what you're gonna write, and then that's where they want you to write. And then as you're growing and changing, and it's a very common thing for authors to want to uh spread their wings or or try their hand at different genres, that can be difficult, especially with these publishing companies that have uh marketing and and sales numbers and things to worry about when we're just the artist, like, oh, I, you know, I want to try my hand at like a romance, you know. Like they're like, you don't write romance. Exactly. Um yeah, I I so I understand that part of it, but I think that's also the challenge we have as artists is to constantly push back and and to let ourselves grow and not grow stagnant and just try and follow trends and what's selling, and you know, is is commercial fiction the way of the future now? Like, is that what everyone wants to read?

SPEAKER_02 14:39

I mean, I feel like yeah, but yeah, I mean, yeah, personally, yes. It's it's the most popular form of of writing. And and I'm I'm I I would think that anything getting more towards the the literary, it's like it just becomes more of a crapshoot of like, yeah, you might say something super interesting and no one's gonna pay attention to it for the next 50 years. And who wants to invest in that right now?

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Actually, that made me think, uh, so a lot of editors right now are looking for like crossover. So we've talked a lot about genre blending um and genre bending book books, which are harder to sell, but a lot of editors want um crossover appeal. So um, for example, with thrillers that have like romantic elements or thrillers that could also sell as like a domestic suspense or for everyone that can't see Lisa's Lisa's dancing happen. Okay. So that's a challenge too, is like, okay, we want we want crossover appeal for like commercial, but also book club, but also interesting to women's fiction, but also, you know, they want you to hit all the different um like exciting points that could go in different genres. So there's there's so much to consider when you're writing. It it's it becomes so much less about well, I mean, and and I guess this is what we're trying to talk about. Like, is it about that? Because it becomes less about the art itself and more about trying to sell these books. And then you kind of lose the the compass, like the artistic compass.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yeah. You do to to an extent where like you you lose one type of conversation that you want to have, which is the subject matter. Like you want to talk about something specific. Um, you want to go deep on a particular topic. Um, that you do lose that. But you also gain something by going commercial, I I I believe this at least, where uh you you gain you can you can uh develop an intellectual interest in perfecting your craft, basically. Because what is a commercial book other than a page turner? What is like commercial fiction can be really interesting artistically if you think of it as you know, I I recently used this uh uh analogy. If you think of this like I don't know, like the old vaudeville silver screen actors like Buster Keaton, when when he is doing a stunt and uh like let's say like he's standing in front of a house and then the front of the house falls on him and uh he just stays completely still and he just goes through the attic window like that. They actually put that together, like they had to plan that. He he had to have an unbelievable amount of composure and professionalism, and there were so many elements that came into effect, or not just came into effect, he had to do them. A team of people had to be on point to get these shots. That I think that if we're just worried about our artistic integrity and writing about the subject matter that we want to, then we're we're missing the opportunity to work on our own skills as uh as entertainers, as as as someone on a stage who is trying to captivate an audience and keep the whole room and keep them with you from the beginning to the end of your story. And if if you are being offered the opportunity to be paid to work on that side of your craft, I say take it.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

And more exposure too. The more exposure, the more fans, the more followers you get. Um, I think that you bring up a really, really good point. And to not get lost in your own ego of like, well, I don't I don't want to write commercial, I want to write some more upmarket or some um poetic prose and just realizing the opportunity. And you're so right that there's actually a lot of skill involved. People think that commercial fiction is more lowbrow, but there's actually a lot of skill involved. You have to have very snappy dialogue, you have to have very tight plot, you have to have very, you have to have twists, you have to have uh amazing pacing. Um editing. Yes, you have to have a language that is easily read by most people. Yes. Um, like a vocabulary that's approachable. Um but also your show, don't tell, has to be on point. Yeah. With with a mix of both, like there is a lot more telling in commercial fiction, but it can't be excessive. So there's actually a ton of skill involved in commercial fiction. So I don't know why it gets so much hate. Why does commercial fiction get so much hate?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

I think because it's easy to attack it for being about lowbrow topics. True.

unknown 20:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

You know, not going deep on an issue. And I don't know. Sometimes things are successful that are not on point, you know, that every everything that you just listed off, like the book is a hot mess, and somehow it's successful. And people are just like, I don't understand. So like I get the eye roll there where you're like, why? Like this is this is empty calories, this is cotton candy, you know. I love me some cotton candy though, sometimes. I I do too, I do too, but you know, it has to be a specific setting. Um, yeah. So I I think that when when you go commercial or if if someone is asking you to, for me, my personal plan is to say at the beginning of my career, at least, of course, like let's let's try this and to see it from that lens. I mean, obviously you can run into a problem later on in your career if you feel like you've kind of you're growing past it and people aren't giving you the time of day to put out your literary work. I I don't know, maybe that's time for a different writing name, a pen name, and striking out on your own again. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

There's actually this psychological principle called foot in the door technique. Okay, what is that? It's where if you get your foot in the door and get someone to do something for you very small, like a very, very small thing, then you have just increased your chances of them getting to do more things for you. Um that's why it's a sales technique of foot in the door. Um so if you get the opportunity, if you get your foot in the door to get commercial fiction um or any book that you've written in the door, um, then you are much more likely in the future to get more deals and to get more opportunities that you want in another in in in whatever opportunity you want, like no matter what direction you want to go. So I would say any opportunity that comes your way, you should just go for it because the That's how you get your foot in the door, and that's how you're going to get more opportunity to come. Oh, that's great. Okay. You know what? I'm taking that advice. I'm going to apply it as quickly as I can. So that kind of leads us to our main act of the day, which is let's say you have a hit commercial fiction on your hands and now you have reached fame. Is this something that we should aspire to? Is fame something that is the end goal? Does that mean we've made it as a writer?

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And is fame as amazing as we think it's going to be or as horrible as we think it's going to be? Um, let's get into the good, bad, and ugly of fame as an author.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Yeah. Well, with these questions, you know, I always like to start from the correct place of uh shame. Um naturally. Should you want fame? Is it okay to want fame as an author? Um I mean, there are plenty of people out there that would say no. Like, that's not you shouldn't, you shouldn't give a damn about wanting to spread your stuff out there, have a lot of people read it. Like the main thing is your artistic integrity.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Well, I think that you're right about that. And I actually looked up some quotes from authors about fame. Okay. And the consensus is it's about the work, not the fame. Okay. Okay. But um wait, are they all famous saying that? They are saying. So it's so easy. That's like those people that say, like, um, money doesn't matter. I don't need things and money, and it's always the rich people that are saying that.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

I mean, it's it's it's a joke that um like very wealthy people uh tell their children, we don't talk about money. We don't discuss money. Yeah. It's just like, okay. You know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

It's so easy for a famous person to be like, oh God, fame. Yeah, I know. So Stephen King said fame is a kind of loneliness. You become public property and people think they own a piece of you. Anne Rice said, fame is a kind of death. Very dramatic there.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Oh, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

You lose privacy and in some ways lose yourself. And then Rebecca Yarrow said that social media and fame is like actually this this I really like this quote. Said it's like a hall of mirrors that can distort who you think you are if you stare at it for too long. So I I wonder if fame is like a drug where you seek it out, you want this high, and then you get it, and then there's like you want more and more and more of it, but then you need more of it. Like, let's say, you know, you a post goes viral and you get, you know, thousands of followers. Next, you're gonna need a higher, you're gonna need a higher dose. You're gonna need, I need to be on a list, I need to be on a talk show, I need to, you know, whatever next in line, I need to be on a red carpet, I need to be friends with actors. You c you need more and more to feel that same high, that same validation.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

And I think that's exactly what it is, is you're seeking this external validation of yes, I am a real writer.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Yeah, which is always the central question. It's what it always comes back to. Yeah. I I completely agree that it is kind of just like taking a drug. You just you need a better high each time. What is that saying? It's like competing with the Joneses. Oh, yeah, keeping up with the Joneses. Keeping up with the Joneses. Okay, wow, I got that wrong the first time. Um keeping up with the Joneses, like the same thing applies with super duper rich people. Like they are still competing with each other. Like there's this whole discussion of like, well, when you get super rich, like top, top, top, top, top, top uh of the spectrum, money stops mattering. And it's just like, no, it actually still does matter in a very specific way. It's you competing with like 10 other people and who has what super yacht? So-and-so has 10 super yachts. Okay, and they each cost this much. I only have four. Like there it's a strange arithmetic, and I think it that that applies to getting famous as well, to having that social media hit that you just described. Where it's like before you had, let's say, you know, a reel on Instagram or TikTok that hit 40,000 views, you were like, I'm happy with a thousand. And then the 400 for me. Yes. No, I mean, like me too. I I I mean, I'm I'm happy with like super low, slightly higher than I had before. No, like that's totally fine. And there's something of a curse in hitting a very high number for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Mm-hmm. Well, I'm thinking too, it's but it I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with wanting notoriety or wanting to be someone. Because I think that's kind of what we're all searching for, is we want to be something no matter what it is. Yeah. I think it's if that's how you're if that's how you're defining your worth, though. Like if I I won't be worth something until other people say I am, that's when I think there's something wrong with it. Because it's also in the nature of writing books. Because I was thinking about this today. Let's say I publish my book and I get I sell 5,000 copies. Okay. Fingers crossed. Be amazing. It would be epic more than I more than my wildest dreams ever thought I would ever sell in my life. But let's say the next book sells 4,999 copies. I'm not gonna be happy. You always want it to like go up. And then there's but there's always gonna be the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And is that the nature of our of our job, of, of being an author? Is that we want it to keep getting better? And then the natural what is the what is the natural endpoint? I don't know. Like that that's kind of got me stumped today, is like, yeah, how do you know when you're done? I I don't even know the question I'm asking or what I'm trying to ask you.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

No, I I I I know what you're getting at, which is basically like there are two sides of it. One, is it right to pursue this? Right for yourself, your happiness, uh, your work to pursue celebrity as an author. But also, once you have it, like, does it change the very character of what happiness means to you?

SPEAKER_04 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

And it kind of reminds me of it's a famous story. Man, I I think he was an Aster. Um, so very famous, you know. I everyone knows the Astors. They're like a super famous, super rich family from you know the 1800s. Um, and uh one of their sons, grandsons, like some some sort of Aster in the family, um, he was very famous for disappearing uh somewhere in I I forget where it was. It might have been Africa, it might have been somewhere in South America, I can't I can't quite remember. But like he was he basically was like, I'm leaving high society, I'm leaving New York, I'm leaving all culture as I know it, and he um would travel around with uh just like tribes, uh like different tribal peoples. And then he just disappeared. And there were all these rumors that he got eaten or something like, you know. And this was like in the 40s, 50s, uh, but just like you think about that perspective of you get to the place where you are an author, you are unbelievably successful, anything that you write is going to bring you and your publisher a bare minimum of some sort of fortune. What do you start looking for for happiness again? But yeah, it's not fortune, it's not fame, it's anonymity, it's something smaller, something that feels more real. It's grass on another side that you used to be on, but you know, you're not on anymore. And I don't know, I I actually don't see what's wrong with that. Like I think that it's fine to come full circle. I think it's I think it's fine to have ambition in your life and pursue something that is dangerous, like celebrity or fame. I think that it's fine to uh devote yourself to your art for certain periods of periods of time and then kind of not for the sake of fame, like go go into more commercial writing for the sake of building your brand. Uh but I also I don't think that the you know almost inevitable endpoint of if you do get famous, you're probably going to yearn for anonymity. Uh I don't think that that undercuts the validity of wanting to pursue the celebrity when you are an undiscovered writer.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Yeah. Yeah. They're one thing to consider too is if you become famous as a writer for, let's say, Twilight, yes. Then it would be very hard to that's gonna be what more publishers want from you and what your fans want from you. And now they feel like they own you, they own your work. That would be very hard to transition out of that. When you're a mid-list author, you have more freedom, I think, because you have proven sales and you're able to transition. Not not easy, of course, but easier than if people are like, no, we want more vampires.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

You're like, no, I don't want any more vampires. Vampires make me sick.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Do you feel like you'd be trapped by that? Like, let's say you become very famous and you are known for, let's say, this new contemporary book you're gonna write, this style of it becomes your thing. People know Lisa Petrov for the writing these books, and you're now you want to transition out of it. You want to go back to your literary roots, but you're not sure people are gonna go for it. Do you think you could do it? Could you abandon what's selling?

SPEAKER_02 32:48

I can do anything.

unknown 32:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

No, I'm kidding. Um, I think that it all boils down to the strategy that you have to take. Because so if there's a part of me that goes, hey, okay, let's say I write this commercial romantic fiction and it takes off, then I know that that took off. And I my main goal is to ride that as hard as I can to some sort of success for my true ambition uh of you know putting out these kind of longer thriller books that are have a little bit more of a depth to them. Uh but if that doesn't pan out, I don't know. Like I could completely imagine myself getting fatigued and thus uninspired.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Yeah, that's my fear. It's like the creativity would be now you're not now you don't have that touchstone, that grounding of loving what you do, which is why we write is like loving the craft of it, loving the art of it. And if you kind of lose that, then there's not going to be heart in your books. I this is a big fear of mine because I I love to dabble and you know, I like commercial domestic suspense, which is what I've sold. I'm now dabbling into horror and trying to sell that. I can see myself going into romance at some point, challenging myself and trying not to kill my characters for once. I can see myself trying to do that. I don't know if I could be successful. That's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

No, you're gonna kill them, even if by accident. I haven't too much.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

I have a I have a marketing idea that I think I'm gonna do is I'm going to get uh stamps with my lips on it and make it black. And then when I sign books, I'm gonna give people the option of getting the kiss of death. That's cute. Okay, I like it. I like it a lot. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Oh, please do. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

I have to figure out where I could get that done, like probably Etsy or something.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

I don't know. Um oh, I bet you, Etsy, like you if you if you send them kind of just a print of of like a kiss print.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

Oh, that's a good thing. Like an impression of it.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Yeah, it would be an impression, and then they would carve it into the rubber of a stamp and and send that back to you. I think I'd have to find an artist to do that.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

That's that's like my I I think I'm gonna do that because since I kill my characters off so often, I'm gonna be the kiss of death, Black Widow.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Nice, nice, excellent. Um, well, man, uh this was such a good branding idea that it made me forget the the point that I was gonna make. Sorry. Yeah, so okay, first of all, that's great. I love that idea. Uh, but back to our conversation about commercial fiction kind of getting boring to write and you feeling like you being you're being ignored uh for your true vision as an author. I mean, if you if you really do the commercial fiction and you're successful at it and you have a name for yourself, I don't think anybody owns your name. Like you can put something else out. You can just start putting things out like yourself, right? You don't necessarily always have to have official representation if you have a big enough name. You know?

SPEAKER_01 36:13

I actually don't know the rules on that. When you sign, you they get first look at all your work. But I mean, are you allowed to self-publish? Surely you can self-publish. Like you don't have to sell your work. So or your name.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Your name. Yeah. Like, because yeah, you don't have to sell your work. If they reject your work, that doesn't mean that your work has to go into a drawer. What? Forever. Like that doesn't mean it's worthless. Yeah, exactly. Um like I'm certain that because like if if a book if even if a book is published and it goes through its run and then uh goes out of print, you can get it back and self-publish it under like a different name with with some edits. Like I've I've heard of authors doing that as well. Well you get your rights back after a certain amount of years. Yeah. So if you haven't if they don't want to buy the rights to the book, then you have the rights to the book and you can you can publish it, I'm assuming under your name. I wonder what the the actual drawbacks would be uh to that. But like my thinking is if you build up a big enough name and you want to publish, I don't know if that would cause like ripples in the industry, because like you if if you become big enough, you are a whale that other people are latching on to.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

You know?

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Uh they're making money off of your labor and they need you. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

So I guess if you become big enough and then fans want that from you, and and they publ in the publisher you're at is just like, I uh you know what, we're gonna stick with with what works with you. Then I guess at that point, if you're big enough, then another publisher is gonna come in and say, Okay, we'll take whatever you give us.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

You know, um, have you seen the movie Misery? Yes. I mean, it's all about that. The main character in the movie is a writer, and he he has this unbelievably popular commercial series called Misery. And uh it's like he basically the last book that he put out, he killed off the main character. He's ending it, and he's about to write his amazing, perfect for himself book that is true art. And then he gets into a car accident in the worst place he possibly could in the backyard of his number one band.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

That's an epic, epic, epic story.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Yes, exactly. And like the worst thing they can ever hold. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, because you have all these pressures from these different people to keep writing the the thing that you that they love. And uh dealing with the idea that people actually might despise your deeper thoughts, that's also something that you have to face. They they might find them boring, offensive, um, you know, not worth worthless, not worth the time, totally stupid and inane. You know, like all the things that you hold dear, you have to also accept that once it hits the world, the world might not like it. So I don't know, it's all a risk.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Yeah. Fame is it's an interesting topic because I feel like at the end of the day, that's what we're all looking for without ever saying it out loud. I'll say it. Well, I'm saying it too. I mean, we're obviously The two of us are saying it. Yeah, we're totally gonna be famous, man. But like yeah. But I do think that there is something like if if people are gonna be put off by that, by us saying that.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Yeah. Oh, because you you being ambitious and showing it is not necessarily acceptable. Or it's not the most popular thing to do. Uh, people absolutely love the story of someone who who was just being true to themselves, just like humbly, you know, working away at their craft, being discovered uh by complete luck and happenstance by some, you know, uh talent scout. And and then they were just kind of whisked up into fame, and now we get to enjoy them for their utterly true and pure representation of talent. Like that's what they want. And it's just like, no.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Which is so interesting, is like to me, that would be those are the most angering stories to hear. The people that have put no effort at all into anything, and then they get propelled into fame and success. Those stories infuriate me more than anything than the ones where people were like every day clawing to get themselves to the top. Those are the ones that I feel really inspired by.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, there's a so I think that the story that people love the most is if the person is only clawing to get to the heart of their craft. Like they are toiling, they are working as hard as they possibly can to be the best attack. Very pure. Yes, exactly. Um, actually, I recently heard this amazing little factoid. I didn't know this. So it's a different um uh scene than writing. Uh it's m uh music scene. Music is like rife with all of this manufactured talent. So I didn't know this, but the sex pistols are were basically just a boy band. Like they were completely manufactured. They were like, if you think about a band like that, like they were known for like spitting on their audience and being just absolutely like I mean, they're they were in the punk scene, like the British punk scene of uh, I don't know, the late 70s, early eighties, and they were vile in the best way possible. Um but uh effectively they were put together by a manager who was like, I want to create this kind of band and I'm going to get these kinds of people to put them into the band and then we're going to take off. And that's what happened. They weren't just those kinds of people who were like, Hey, I want to do some music. I'm I'm I'm really talented and I want to be this way, and then they were recognized. Like he he manufactured them, he put it together. That's how One Direction was too. Uh well, yeah, but they're the thing with One Direction is like they're more obviously a a boy band, right? Like the Sex Pistols are there's something that people are going, oh, this is this is pure this is pure vileness. This is pure punk. You know, like it's completely acceptable if it's in sync or the Backstreet Boys. Like we all they they were very upfront from the beginning that they were five guys put together to entertain 13-year-olds. Like the sex pestals were more like a revolution. And a revolution needs to be pure.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Exactly. That is such a good point. So what we need to do is just make it look like we aren't trying at all.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Yes. Uh so it's just like when you're asked it's like, are you are you uh writing a book? Absolutely not. No, I'm not I'm not a writer. I'm terrible at what I do. Um no. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think It's time to pivot to our reviews. Yes. Yes. Okay, excellent.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Throw some tomatoes.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

Yes. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

I was throwing a tomato.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

I like the way you throw, you mimic throwing. It's just like boop. It's very girly. Okay, so well, uh, I'm ready to throw a tomato. Are you? Yes. Okay. Can I go first? Sure. My tomato has a little twist to it this week. I picked Charlotte's Webb. Oh. And I went to the three-star section instead of the one-star, the two-star. And my three-star, what what would you say a three-star review is? That would you like a three-star review as an author? No. Okay, why not? Tell me, just I this this is how I want to prep this this review. Why wouldn't you uh want a three-star review as an author?

SPEAKER_01 44:53

I think a three-star review is a meh. That's like a I read it, it was meh. Nothing, nothing too exciting about it, nothing original, uh, nothing great about it, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's just done. It wasn't great, it wasn't horrible.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Excellent, excellent. You know, I know so many writers, and uh I think you've actually talked to some industry professionals that that agree with you. Three stars is just right, not a great sign about the author. Well, this three-star review is titled Great Read. And the review says, Great story for children. That's it. Um and I just I wanted to bring this one up because there are there's a whole world of people who think that three stars just means good in a good way. But it in the industry and two writers, it means bad. It's like it's like getting a C. And and you have honor roll parents. You have parents that will whip you if you don't get an A. You don't want that C, and you do not want a C that says great work. No, fantastically average. Like you need five stars.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

As an author, I would be tempted to message that reviewer and be like, can you move this to a four-star, please?

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Yes. Four stars is like a beat. Yes. It's acceptable. Yes. You know, you don't have to go to summer school. No one's gonna get you a tutor. Yes. So anyway, I just wanted to bring that up. That is a very common thing to see. Uh, once you either publish yourself or get published, you are going to have so many readers that go. Oh, I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Three stars. Yeah. Oh my god. That was that was a painful review. That's not even my book, and I feel bad about that review. I mean, it's Charlotte's Webb, so you don't have to care.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

But literally, even the one-star reviews were like, this is one of the greatest books ever written. It's so perfect. And all of them were just about the um the caliber of the Kindle. You know, the Kindle version. They were just like, the picture is brand new, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Yeah. I hate that too because when it's about the quality of the actual copy of the book, because that's so confusing. There should be like a separate rating system for that.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

I I completely agree because the writer gets impacted. Well, Charlotte Webb won't, but if you're if you're normie.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Exactly. Yeah. They'll think it's the commentary on the book. Yes. So I stuck with our theme of fame, and I picked a very famous author, Emily Henry.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

She's You're so smart to stick with our theme of fame. You're you are you are on theme. I was just like, I'm gonna pick something.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

No, I loved yours. It was like out of the box thinking. I chose Emily Henry, uh, People We Meet on Vacation, two-star review. Um, why the hell did I read this? I wasted a good time with this book. It took me five days. Five days to read it. I hated Alex so freaking much, the miscommunication, no thanks, I'm not a fan of that. I liked Poppy, she is sunshine, and I like sunshine characters. This book bored me to death. It put me in a reading slump. It felt like I've been reading this book forever. I felt like I was never gonna finish it, and I hated that feeling, to be honest. Not worth the hype in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

How old is this person? Five days feels like forever. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Come on, it's it's not even a week. Well, why would you with this is a this is interesting to me is like why did you not just DNF it? Like you put in the effort to keep going. Yeah. And uh just it just obviously wasn't for you. And this book has like m over a million reviews or ratings on Goodreads. Is that insane? Emily Henry is so stunning, she's famous, she obviously writes amazing books, they're turning into movies. Yeah. It's so funny to me when someone like this writes it and is like hated it. You know, it just like it just seems so small in like in like her bubble of amazing. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 49:16

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Expect it. I guess as an author, like it doesn't matter how big you get. People are you're gonna get DNS, you're gonna get boring thrown in your face, all you're gonna get, I hated this character, things didn't make sense. Mm-hmm. I don't know. You don't make sense, reviewer. Exactly. So let's move on to questions from our listeners. Yes. Uh we have a good question. It's related more to last week's episode, but I think it's a really good one. It's about query letters. Uh so they said, uh, you talked a lot about crafting a good pitch and query letter. Did you have one version that you ended up sending everyone, or did you do multiple pitches? I think this question is more directed towards you, Sydney.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

I don't know anybody. Um, I had the original query letter that I sent out, and then I realized it was not working for me. So I got an editor. Is it no was it the lack of responses or were you like told by a just lack of responses?

unknown 50:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

And then I got um I decided to do a full edit of my manuscript, and I did that with a query package from Readsy. Okay. And she did the she took the query letter I had and just kind of tweaked it for me. And what's crazy is I submitted that query letter with her tweaks and then immediately got tons of full requests.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

So and she just tweaked it like just like a few words here and there. It was crazy. And then that changed it completely. So I had two versions. The first one I did on my own, which sucked, apparently, and then the one I did with help that was very successful. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

So for for the for the actual pitch though, like it sounds like just a uniform across the board. Like you didn't have to tailor it between agent to agent necessarily that much.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

No, just the intro of like why I chose them. So like based on your interest of what blah blah blah. You know, when you when you personalize it to them. So it would just be like the first entry, the first sentence.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Yeah. So basically the advice is tailor the stuff that's supposed to be about the agent, but everything else, keep get it to a point where you're really confident in it, either through your own you know, work or through outside help and keep that the same. Yes. Yeah. That should not be that's a pretty straightforward answer this week. Yeah. Very straightforward.

unknown 51:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

Thanks for the question. Yes. Uh hope it hope somebody. Um okay. Now onto our exciting news. Yes. I'm very excited because we are not just doing a topic next week. We are going to be joined by a very special guest, a fellow author.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Her name is Erica Vipond, and she is an independently published author. She is the third to our trio, and she's in our writers group with us. She's extremely talented, very business-minded lady, very good at marketing and aesthetics and knowing how to get books sold and into different independent bookstores. And she's a go-getter. She's constantly signing at different events, amazing at networking. She's constantly getting on to me and Lisa about our marketing and helping us and telling us ways to be more business-minded, I would say, because we're kind of more free, free spirit. So she keeps us in line and she's going to come on next week and share her expertise with us and with you. And so I am so excited to have our first guest be one of our very, very, very good friends, who we both respect so much. And I know she's going to give great advice.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

Yes, she's going to give us uh all the tips on how to successfully self-publish a book. She's done it twice now, and uh she has had quite the response. So I'm really excited to have her on. It's gonna be great. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Thanks for listening, and we will see you next week on PageFright.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

Thanks. Like and subscribe. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 53:39

You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at pagefrightcontact at gmail.com.