Query Letters and In-Person Pitches

Most writers spend months—or even years—struggling over how to perfect their pitch. What if the secret to getting noticed by agents isn’t a polished paragraph, but a bold, one-sentence hook? In this episode, Sydney and Lisa uncover the truth about craft and confidence in pitching your book, whether it’s in front of an agent, at a conference, or over a casual coffee.

You’ll discover why some of the most successful authors cut through the noise with a simple, punchy phrase—and how you can craft your own that hooks gatekeepers and opens doors. We break down the key differences between query letters and in-person pitches, revealing the proven frameworks that have landed manuscripts requests, offers, and even Hollywood deals. From avoiding amateur mistakes like over-explaining or trying to impress with obscure myth references, to mastering the art of the short, compelling logline, this episode helps you communicate your book’s value with clarity and confidence.

We also dive deep into the often-overlooked power of comps—how to pick the perfect books to position your novel in today’s saturated market. Whether you’re a seasoned writer preparing for your first pitch or just starting out, you’ll get practical tips on making your voice stand out without sacrificing authenticity. Plus, hear the behind-the-scenes stories of real pitches—some wildly successful, others hilariously awkward—that show what works and what definitely doesn’t.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I'm Sydney Kane. And I'm Lisa Petrov. And you're listening to Page Fright, where we talk about writing craft, the ins and out of the publishing industry, and our own personal journeys as authors. So let's dive in.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hey! Hey! Uh so I heard you got your developmental edits, or you just finished them or Yeah, round one.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

I heard it's a degree fine. Literally just two hours ago, I finished my first round of developmental edits. Oh my goodness. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

So well tell me, tell me what they were like. First of all. Don't don't we're we're gonna s we're we're not gonna be at how you feel right now. I don't want I don't want to know that yet. I want to know what it was like.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

You know, it wasn't as intense as I was expecting because this particular manuscript has gone through I don't even know how many rounds of edits. And so when the developmental editor got back to me, she was like, This is pretty solid, no plot holes, good character arcs, so I don't really have any notes for you. So to be honest, this one was not that it felt more like line edits. I didn't really change anything except for I did delete one character from existence because she didn't just didn't need to be there.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

And then wait, wait, wait. You deleted a character at the ver at the end? Like just like round of edits?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yeah, because she was such a small character and yeah, she really didn't need to be there. She didn't need to be there easily. She was just leaving more questions, and I was like, you know what? You just bye-bye. So she was gone. So I got rid of one character, and then the rest of it was just line edits, and I I just have to get straight to how I feel though, because I haven't touched this manuscript in two years. And when I tell you I'm not the same writer anymore, I'm not. And it was so hard for me. I was like, this must be what it's like for writers who just go back and constantly will rechange their work over and over again because I had this huge desire to select all delete.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

And oh my god. I I know I know exactly what you mean. Like I have that all the time. It's really bad. But I have to force myself not not to do it. I have to force myself not to tinker. Especially when I'm like, oh, I have a better idea. I like I want to do this instead. And it's just like, don't don't waste your time. Save it for a future project.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, that's what I told myself. And I did, though, change a lot of the way I wrote the sentences. I just kind of updated it a little bit more to where I am now as a writer. But it's so funny because that's one of the first manuscripts I've ever written. And I noticed a lot of amateur writing mistakes in it that I had to go back and fix. Okay, you have to okay, give give give us some. So one of them that I cannot stand, and I could not believe how many I was using are f are uh filter words. So I would say I uh I was feeling or uh then I saw or I did a lot of feeling instead of just describing it. So I had to change, take out so many filter words. I didn't use contractions in my dialogue, which sometimes I don't use contractions, but I do a lot of the times just because it makes it flow smoother. So I had to fix that. Just little things like that that you kind of develop in skill over time. Yeah. Uh and then when you read it back, you're like, oh, glaring amateur author mistake. So I had to change so many. It's interesting because uh I have the same problem.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

I have uh a lot of my characters turn, like they turn to each other, and it's just like you don't actually need that as much as you think. There's so many tricky words where you think in order for someone to accurately imagine what is happening in your book, you need to say certain movements. Or for them to relate to how the character is perceiving a scene, you need to say that they saw something or they felt something, but you actually it's surprising what you don't need. It really is. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

And certain words, two other things I'm thinking of is that I use tighten, like tight a lot. I must have been like in a tightened grip phase, or like heart pounding. I I I just like use those same phrases over, so I had to change that. And then the other thing was my sentence, I had to alternate my sentence structures because I didn't like my I probably was nitpicking myself because that's how I am, but I was going through and I was just like, oh, Sydney of Past. You have left me with so much work to do.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

You know, that's why I read things aloud. It's the alternating of sentence structures because when I hear myself read it aloud, I'm able to kind of relate it to other times I've heard audiobooks read aloud. And I'm like, does it sound similar? Does it sound professional? Because I think a lot of people, it's like when you're a native speaker of a language, you feel what's wrong before you intellectually know what's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

So that's why reading aloud for me helps me identify what's gonna be better for for an audience because it's like I I know that I don't intellectually know all of the rules. No one does. But you can definitely sense it. If you've read a lot, then you can sense what feels right and what feels wrong.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, I I've I've been taking that advice from you, so I'll read dialogue out loud now to myself.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Um read it all, read it all, read the whole thing. I'm so serious. It doesn't just have to be dialogue, just like cause because you'll see, like, hey, I use sentences that are this length. Like I I I use the same length sentence um uh with like the the same conjunction, you know, like five times in a row. And it sounds incredibly static and repetitive. Like something like that. And if you read it aloud, then you then you're like, oh, okay, I got it. Now I can like okay, you know what? The these two sentences in the middle, like they they can actually be combined in this interesting way, and so I now have a flow. Like that's that's why I like it.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, I'm gonna do that more, I think, because it's been very helpful for me. Did you get any writing done this week?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Not as much as I wanted to. So I went on vacation. Uh, we went to Newport, Rhode Island.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Uh it was cool. Did you see all the huge I've been watching uh the new Rhode Island Housewives, and so I they just this past week went to the huge mansions houses. Did you happen to drive by them at all? Well, that's all you can do there.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

That is the main thing to do. So yeah, we definitely we went to the breakers, went inside, and because my book is taking place in kind of an era immediately after the Gilded Age, I of course wanted to go see it. Like I I wanted to like I was taking pictures all over the place. Like it was half a research trip and half just a little mini weekend vacation. Oh, those are the best. Yeah, it was the best. Newport is definitely not my sort of town. Really why? I'll just say that I had to like buy new clothes to go there. And everybody wore white pants, and I didn't understand that at all. Oh yes. Like it was kind of a it was a very preppy like town that is just different from my vibe. Like I'm just not not that kind of girl. And did you drive by Taylor Swift's house? She doesn't live in Newport. She lives um I looked up like who are the famous people that live here? And uh they said that she lived in another part of Rhode Island that I can't remember what it is. Uh but yeah. So I did not I did not drive past her house.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Did I ever tell the story on here about how I drove to Bethany Frankel's house? Who's that? In the Hamptons? I don't know if she does The Skinny Girl, she was on Real Housewives of New York. I don't watch any of the Real Housewives. We live in completely separate worlds. We do. We do. I don't know how we're friends. Oh I drove to her house in the Hamptons when I was visiting one time. And I it was driving this, like I was in training, so I had like no money. I was driving this beat-up, tiny little Honda that had was like literally two months away from breaking down, actually breaking down on the highway. Okay. Um parked outside of her house and I was like, look, this is I was telling my friends at the time, this is her house. I I've seen this on the show so many times. And then right at that moment, her gates opened and she was backing out with her boyfriend at the time, the one who was bald. You don't know, but listeners will probably know. I'll know the one who's bald. So she I had my window down and she backs out of her Jeep, and I stuck my head out the window and I was like, bathana, and sort of she looked, she waved to her credit, but she looked terrified. And then I realized, wow, I am that girl right now. I'm that psycho fan that's making her afraid for her life. And so I got I got in the car and I told my husband, I was like, go, go, go, go, go. But we had to drive by them, like go towards them to get away from them. So I had to drive forward past them in their jeep. And then I just like waved at her like this, like, I'm harmful. I waved again because I didn't want her to be afraid. I was like, I'm harmless. I'm just a psychophant. No, no, there's no salvaging. You say I'm harmless. That doesn't comment. Well, the windows were up at that point. So I just kind of was like hoping that my wave conveyed my. And then we drove away. And she probably was horrified by the experience, but for me, it was very fun and exciting. That's incredible. Be honest.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

So wasn't as fun and exciting for your husband.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Oh, he was so he just looked, he's well, he's used to my antics, but he just looked at me and he was like, I don't know what's wrong with you. He's like, There's just something wrong. And he's like, Can we go get lunch now? And I was like, All right. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

That's that's that's incredible. Well, I'm gonna have to look up who this woman is now.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yes, she's very famous, very famous. So just pull yourself out from under that rock and figure out who this woman is. Hey, hey, hey, I know a bunch of other things.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

You know a lot of things I don't know. So I'll take this one. Um wait, you were in Austin last weekend. I was. I was in Austin this past weekend. You saw my town. I did, and I was missing you greatly. We met I met up with our other writer friend and we went to lunch, and I was sad that you weren't there, but we did go around and look at homes and looked at some areas so excited. See, I'm gonna turn you from Dallas girl into Austin girl if you move here. I'm ready. I feel like I'm already transforming into that. I wore my grunge clothes. Okay. You know, just carrying my laptop around. You were you you got a little weird. I did. Yeah. It got a little weird, and I was super into my coffee game there.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

I was like, Yeah, we have apparent I okay. Social media is telling me that we are officially beating New York for our coffee game. I don't really believe it, but like we do have really good coffee.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, that's that's incredible. Just like the small venue, too, not these big like Starbucks of places. Oh, obviously. Well, let's move on to our wait what? Where we don't try and answer one this week. Yes. Or we don't try to answer the hard questions, we just talk about them. So why don't you introduce our wait what of the week?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

And I can't remember what I came up with. So uh I remember what you came up with. Um oh yeah. Uh yeah, how long should it take you to write a book? That's uh that's the big question. Because, you know, I think it it takes longer than you think every time, you know, you hear crazy things. Like uh the writer for Avatar, whatever her name is. What's her name? Sarah J. Musk. Yeah, it took her like a month to write the first one. No, you're kidding. She wrote it real quick. Wow. Like it was a almost stream of consciousness, like just like get it. She had the idea and then she was like, boo-boom. Well, what's her excuse for it taking uh over two years for this next one to drop? Um I'm thinking well, so the first one's very like kind of tried and true stories that she laid on top of one another. And I think that that helped it along because she has a it's like it's basically like beauty and the beast for the first half. And then what is it for the second half? Like there's something else that it's like Hercules. I mean, it's uh it's a little bit um yeah, it's kind of Hercules, yeah, because she does these trials. So it's just like the first half is just such a you know, like it's it's almost a hardcore retelling that she like pretties up a little bit. And then she tells a little bit more of her own story for the second half. So like I can see why it went by pretty quickly. Like if you if you have that clarity that then you can do it. Also, it she'd been she'd written a bunch of other books. Yeah, she was writing her Crescent City series. Yeah. Um well anyway, how long should it take to write a book? What's an acceptable amount of time, Sydney? Is there an acceptable amount of time? No.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

I mean, unless you have a deadline coming up, but uh I think whatever time you want to write it, and also it's genre dependent as anything, but if you want to be ambitious like Freedom McFadden and pop out like three to four books a year, that's pretty cool. I think for me, my with my genres and what I try and do, I try and plan the book for a month, maybe a month, month and a half, and then I wanna my goal is to try and pop it out within five to six months. My fastest so far has been six months, I want to say. Longest ten years was my first one. So what about you?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, well, so I'm on year five for this current book, which was finished as in my beta readers. My two readers that I sent it out to finished it. Now it's really happy with the results. So we can we can go into that later. Uh but yeah, I'm on year five with this one. Ultimately, I would love to be able to write books faster. Again, I think it depends on the genre. There are writers that take ten years per book, and they're not amateurs, they are just writing a type of you know, literary fiction that takes a lot of thought, you know. Uh it's kind of a lot of intellectual processing that's happening, and they're they're really trying to think through it. However, there are some people that just are just like, no, your book should never take ten years, you know. I have another friend, I have a friend who she so you said that how long did you say you plan out your books for? Like a month, month and a half at most. She takes a year to plan out her books. And well, here's the thing she has tons of ideas. So she has her ideas and she's just kind of tinkering with them concurrently, just a bunch of them, and they're just kind of lingering in this like subspace of her mind, and they're just dating basically. I think of them like eggs. Like we're just dating, and she's like every so often she's kind of contributing to them, thinking through their plots and and going, Okay, do you work? Do you not work? I've taken taken some time away from you. And like as they build up, they get to a point where she's like, Okay, now it's ready to be written. She writes she writes quite a few books per year. For the past few years, she's written like two to three books per year. Wow. And um she's able to put them out very fast.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

So I've noticed that my change over time has been in the beginning, I would think about it for a day and then just start writing totally no direction. I've realized that the more work I put into it beforehand, the easier it is to write and the faster I write as well. So over time I've become much more of a plotter from my original pantzer days where I was like, I don't know what this story's about. I don't know what I'm writing, but we're gonna follow this train of thought and see where it goes.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yeah. I mean, I like pantsing. I think pantsing can be really good to get your earliest draft out. You can come up with some really original ideas that way. But uh yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

I don't know. Yeah, I think I think it's whatever is your fancy. That's the nice thing about writing, is it's your sport. You're only competing against yourself and however fast you want to write. Um, and just make a goal for yourself and do it. But I definitely don't think it should take you ten years.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah. I mean, so Donna Tart takes ten years per book, apparently. So she wrote um A Secret History, which is like super famous. She's written a bunch of things, actually. Like, I mean, she is a very big author.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Yeah. So I guess there's no right answer, which is the fun thing about our wait what segments is that there's usually no answer. It's just talking about it. We have a really fun main act today. We're gonna talk about query letters and we're gonna talk about in-person pitches. Yeah. These are two of my favorite things to talk about. Just kidding. They're not. Yeah. These are my favorite things to do. Just kidding. Yes, yes. God, that is the worst. I hate it. It's so stressful. You have to put yourself out there. It's your first time where you're like, now I'm gonna be rejected a hundred percent. Like you know you're gonna be rejected by somebody and you have to prepare yourself for it.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

So I would say for for everyone listening out there, think of think of your book idea. Think of everything that's in it. Think of all the beautiful, like little details that you put in, all the little subplots and sub-meetings and connections, and then shove it into an elevator pitch that is 30 seconds or less, that hooks the person that is listening to you, doesn't bore them and makes them want to buy. Like and doesn't confuse them, you know. You have to leave so many things out. Just like pick the most comprehensive thing that describes your book, but also make it the most interesting thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

And I'm just like And it needs to be one to two sentences. Actually, the log line like for like movies and stuff. If you want to sell your book, they want it to be like one to two sentences, like hook them in one sentence. Do that. I actually printed out my query letter that I did for my book that's coming out. I did get help on this. Okay. Took classes and everything on how to write a query letter. So this one in particular got me like 20 full requests, and I got two offers of rep with this query. So I'm gonna break it down and then and then read directly from my query letter. So you have an example and you have an outline. First of all, this should not go above a page. Okay, single spaced. And in the first paragraph, you want to make a connection, you wanna do the title, how many words, genre, comps, and then your log line, your one to two sentence hook, hook 'em. So for my beginning paragraph, I wrote, Dear so-and-so, given your interest in upmarket thrillers and stories with passion, which so very brief, I am hoping my debut novel may be a good fit for your list. Our love language is murder, 70,000 words, is darkly humorous adult women's fiction, back when I thought this is women's fiction. Perfect for fans of the perfect marriage, the golden couple, and how to kill men and get away with it. Through a dual POV, we follow wealthy married couple, Declan and Cressida, on their Hawaiian vacation, where both have decided to kill their spouse once and for all. This story is made to be a trilogy, but it can stand on its own, and as of now, it's gonna be standing on its own. So that's my intro paragraph. You know, very short and sweet. Then the difference between a query letter and a synopsis is you're giving your trailer, you're not giving away the whole plot point and going into it in detail. So if they ask for, usually in a query package, they ask for your query letter, which is what I'm telling you now. A synopsis, which tells the entire story and gives all the Wait, so the synopsis is more than a page. The synopsis is yeah, it's more and that tells the entire story beginning to end, and hopefully an interesting way, like can't be boring. You gotta spice it up, but yeah. So here's my two paragraphs that kind of tell them what the story's about. So all the money in the world can't buy Declan and Cresida a happy marriage, but a trip to Hawaii might afford at least one of them a chance to start anew. Declan, an elite neurosurgeon from Old Money, has hired a hitman to remove his dispassionate wife from the picture, and Cresida has her own plans for walking away with their fortune and her reputation intact. They'll have seven days in paradise to pull off their plots, taking in the local scenery, dangerous terrain, shark attacks, and helicopter flying mishaps. But when all is laid bare, will they discover they have a connection worth saving after all? And if so, will it be too late to salvage their relationship and save their lives? A twisting escapade peppered with macabre humor. Our love language's murder explores a toxic yet seductively chaotic relationship. So that's boom, that's it. Mm-hmm. Which leaves out a lot of it. And then the last paragraph, which is very short, is a brief bio about you. So I just said talked about how I have a degree in psychology. I'm a member of the you you want to put your memberships and like things that you're doing. So I said I'm a member of Writers League of Texas, and then just a short little thing about you, you know, like what do you like to do, your hobbies. Just keep it short and brief. They don't really care about this, okay? I think that paragraph is probably almost ever read.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I agree. Unless they like have already requested and read and liked some of your writing, then they might revisit the query letter and go, like, who's this person again?

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Well, and and actually at the last time we went to a conference, a lady there was having the hardest time getting an agent. And she was a best-selling author, she had been self-publishing. Yeah. And then she were you there for that talk? And then I was there for that talk. That was super interesting.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yes. It's very genre specific though. Yeah. Cause she's a romance writer. And I you know what?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

I'll let you tell the story. You were telling so well, sorry. So she was a romance writer and she had all these best selling books, and she was putting her bio at the bottom of the page, which said things like, I've sold how many copies. Best selling, self published books.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

All generate like all like she was selling. It all through just her website. Just had a website. And like these are silly. They were very silly romance books, too. They were like, she had like the pickle series. I never I didn't look it up, so I didn't notice that. Oh yeah. So it was it was it was very interesting. They were all like navy SEALs, and it was just it was a very like particular type of romance that you know she was making a lot of money on it. Definitely selling it herself.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

But despite all this, she couldn't get an agent. So she had a friend tell her move your bio to the first paragraph. And then lo and behold, she gets a ton of requests, ton of offers. So it really is just dependent. Like if you have a killer bio where you're like, I've sold a bunch of bunch of books, put that in your first paragraph.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah. I mean, and it's so interesting. It's just basically like, okay, so it seemed like the books that she was writing when she was sending them to agents, they were like, I don't, I don't like this. I wouldn't personally read it, or something like that. Like, I really do think that because like when I looked it up, I was just like, I can see why agents were questioning, you know, whether they should publish you, like based on like, I don't know, it's just it was it was the lowest common denominator kind of commercial writing, which is I think it's that's a wonderful thing to write, especially like if you're entertaining people. But I can see how some some people were being a little snobbish and not giving her the time of day based on the topic, but then she busts out that she has 40,000 followers. Uh, she makes these amounts of sales per month. It's a and then they're like, I literally don't care what you write. Exactly. You know, let me represent you, please. So it's it's an interesting yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

It's an interesting kind of work. Yes, it is. And so we've kind of gone over the query letter. So now let's talk about the difference between that and in-person pitches. Well, first of all, why don't you tell us what an in-person pitch is and where you might find one of these?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Well, so there are going to be in-person pitches at the conference that we're both going to be attending, the agents and editors conference held by Writers League of Texas in June. Uh, you can still buy tickets for it. Um basically, like, that's the only opportunity that I've seen where you can have an in-person pitch to an agent going to a conference where they set up one-on-ones. I know that so like the one-on-ones for this conference, you have to you either have to sign up in time to get an opportunity to get one for free, or you have to purchase one if you don't sign up in time.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

So luckily, I'm not pitching because I already have an agent, but yes, I would be very mad at myself if I did this to myself.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

And I'll tell you what I'm planning on doing this year, uh, because I'm not sure if I'm going to pitch an agent. I might do something slightly different, but I'll I'll get to that in a moment. So, yeah, so I I have a feeling that you can do that at other conferences. It just depends on whether they set them up. And I think that there's a difference between this type of scenario, which is basically they set up a 10-minute block for you to sit down opposite an agent and you have them for 10 minutes. There's a timer as well. Like you are there. Undivided attention. You're not just catching them going someplace, you're not just scaring the bejesus out of them while they drive with their bald boyfriend in a car. Um, but uh I I think that there's a different type of elevator pitch where it's like, okay, you meet someone who happens to be an Asi at a party, or you meet them while they're just attending the conference, because you know, there are plenty of these agents that go to these kinds of writers' conferences are just out and about. And if you recognize someone that you want to talk to, I think it would be a slightly different kind of pitch that would have to ultimately be shorter. But uh yeah, so that's kind of the scenario how you access being able to pitch someone in person. Uh and yeah, it's it's very similar to the query letter, uh, where basically you are you're introducing your work in a basically single sentence uh hooky way that uh gives cock titles immediately, like right at the top, and then you give a very short uh paragraph long, possibly two paragraphs, like just you have to make it through, that gives uh a hooky description of your book. And that's that's kind of it. So I can show you the pitch that I made.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

But before you go into that, I want to say it doesn't always go according to plan. So this last time I went, so some agents prefer it to be more conversational where they just want to ask you the questions and have you answer. And this last time when I went, before I had my agent, I went and pitched to someone and I had my uh little two-paragraph idea in my head, and I started saying it, and I got two sentences in and she stops me and just I could tell she was so annoyed. I don't know, I don't know what was wrong. And then she like told me like straight up, like, I'm just not interested. I'm not gonna take on thrillers or whatever, you know. And I was like, Oh, okay. I I was feeling bad because I was thinking, did I not? I said, Oh, I'm sorry, I th I saw on your profile you were accepting thrillers, which is why I'm pitching to you. And she goes, basically, oh I am, but I'm just not doing this. And it was just like awkward silence. And then she ended up just spending my 10 minutes coaching me on how to pitch my book to another.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

It was sounds like it started out in like an offensive way where I'm like, oh, this was late. It did. It was I mean, it's worthwhile in the end.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I mean, I think any interaction you have is worthwhile in the end because it it caught me on my heels. It taught me a situation where I need to think quickly and I can't be thrown, and you know, that could have been devastating and crushing. You've you've been waiting for months to have this meeting, and then they just blow you off like that and so unkind. And I th luckily I had one after that went very well, but I was thinking, you know what, this is a really good learning experience that I have to I have to know.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Did you change your pitch according to her recommendations for the next one, or did you keep it the same?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

I changed it. I did not go into my full pitch. Like, you know how I just now I read it from you? I just I just sat down and said, I'm writing a probably I said woman's fiction, I don't remember. And it's about a couple who are secretly planning to kill each other on romantic vacation. And I stopped right there. And then she followed up with a really tell me more and and ask specific questions. So I did not come with my pre-planned pitch that I had rehearsed over and over and over again for months. Oh my god. I just went in for one sentence and it ended up going well, and she asked for a full manuscript. She ended up ghosting me after that, but at least it went it went better than the first.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

So I mean, I think that everything is so variable. Like you just you don't know what types of interactions that person has had that day. First of all, you don't know what types of books they have on their plate. Maybe maybe they have a bunch of clients that they're like they're not able to sell to anybody right now. Like maybe they're not closing the sale on their end of things and you're catching them at a bad time. Also, if it doesn't work between you and this one person, they're just not the right person for you. And there's literally I don't think that there's any meaning behind it, honestly. I I think that yes, you can reflect on, hey, was there anything I could have done that was in my control to change this situation, uh, to do better in it? And sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no. And trying to just keep yourself calm through that and still love yourself through it. Yeah, just don't give up after those kinds of situations.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Definitely. I've had so many bad interactions, and there's definitely a sentiment with some, not all, agents and editors where it's like, you're a nobody, you know, you're you're getting graced with my time, and you could definitely get treated that way. And I can tell you, those are not the people you want to be working with. You want to be working with agents like mine who are like, you're amazing, let's do this together, and and really lift you up, and they don't make you feel small. I mean, I've been made to feel small so many times over the years.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

It's true. I it's not it's not a pleasant experience trying to sell your manuscript in general. And I've known quite a few people that like have tried to sell their manuscripts over the years, and it's a hard process that's full of meeting tons of different people with different personalities that range from very nice to extremely abrasive and rude and demeaning. And it's just like that's that's on them. I I hate this first lady.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I was so deflated after that and so full of nerves. Although, you know what, I was so nervous to talk to her, and it was so uh deflating that when I was sitting for my waiting for my second one, I got a complete weirdly, I got a confidence boost where I was like, you know what, fuck it. Like I'm just gonna go in here and do my thing. It can't be worse than that.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

So well, I'm also like, look, you signed up for sitting with authors that paid to meet with you. You know, I paid for this. Yeah, it's like, no, you signed up, you be polite. This person didn't stop you in an elevator, this person didn't stop you at the grocery store. You know what I mean? They paid for your time. They went to this conference to sit down with you to share their work and don't act impatient with them. Right. Especially because I picked you specifically on a whole list because I really wanted to meet you. Yeah, exactly. That makes me so sad. You know, I'm personally preparing for, you know, poor interactions like on this level, because like I'm going to, if they ask, like, I'm going to tell them, you know, it's a long ass book. And they're gonna tell me, well, I'm not interested. Why did you waste my time? You know, because all of these agents are like, if it's if it's X long, there's there's no point in in taking it on. Points of feedback that I got from my beta readers was like, I don't know how you can take this down. You might have to self-publish because like it read really fast. I was really into it. Like they both finished it within a few days. And you said they loved it 200,000 words. And like I told I was walking with my boyfriend, he read it, uh, and I was like, Yeah, that part that you're talking about, that was 70,000 words. And he was like, No, I don't believe you. Because he finished it in like an afternoon. Wow. Yeah. So I'm like, I don't know. Well, what a compliment. It was it it felt really good. That's why I was really happy about it. Right. Uh um, there were other things that were said that were not quite as complimentary, but it was all constructive feedback, and I'm very excited about it. Well, anyway, let's get to the pitch. So it's interesting. You say that you went into this kind of scripted pitch, and this woman just stopped you and you did better with just like, here's a very quick it's about this. That's it. Now let's start a conversation about it. I did the complete opposite and I got a full transcript request, and the only thing that stopped it was me in the end. I ghosted her where I was just like, I can't, I can't finish this and get it down to the number of words that I think is acceptable. So like I haven't sent it to her yet. She's on me. But uh like she seemed excited and and that was it. So like I read her a totally scripted thing. Okay. I'm glad that went well for you. But I mean that genuinely. I actually am really glad that went well for you. I mean, yeah, I just say it because I'm like, who knows what will happen. I think it does depend on the person that you get. Anyway, uh so the thing I'm reading is I wrote it two years ago. This is what I literally said to the agent. And it's an old title, so don't judge me. It's just my working title at the time. Okay. It reads, His girl Driver is a retelling of My Fair Lady, except instead of the hero lifting the heroine up from obscurity in order to win a bet, he lifts her up in pursuit of revenge. He believes that she is the illegitimate daughter of his oldest enemy, but what he doesn't know is that her story is far darker, and she is far more dangerous than he or the book's villain are ready to handle. And I can I can go on, but that was basically just the first two paragraphs. Those that was my hook and my comp. Uh and then I went on. Um, on the surface, it's a dual POV historical romantic thriller about an anti-hero folly-a-doo couple set in 1929 New York City. It has sex, cocaine, murder, car crashes, Russian royalty, assassins, and a happily ever after ending. But at its core, the novel is a deadly, magical realist thrill ride through the final gasp of the roaring twenties about the idolization of kings, fathers, and love the fetishization of violence when they fail you, and the deadly chaotic consequences when you decide not to forgive. So that's that was yeah. So that that was the pitch. And then I I gave her two comps at the end, just kind of like I said, I said my fair lady, like at the beginning, which is kind of just like it's very much based on that type of story. But you also have to include comps, uh, this is for the audience, you also have to include comps of books that are like currently on shelves. And for me, it was it was difficult because I wasn't sure what historical fiction I was really like that was super recent. That's a hard one. So I I knew that I was kind of emulating Evie Dunmore, who she tells me more kind of realistic historical fiction. So my comp was Bringing Down the Duke, uh, came out a few years ago. And I I specifically said so Evie Dunmore for her historical accuracy and slow burn romantic tension. But like, because I'm doing a genre blend, right? So like that was one comp. And then the other one was The Alienist by Caleb Carr. That came out in the 90s. So I'm not sure how good that was to do, but I did want to bring that up because for his historical writing, like I am trying to emulate a type of seriousness in the tone. The voice of the book is much more like that. It's not kind of a it's not fun and modern necessarily. It's it's something else. So I wanted to convey that, but I don't know. So that that was how I did it. I got a I got a request, I got a a very good reaction, and other people that I have shared the pitch to in the industry, I've I've always gotten good reactions from that pitch. So that's what I plan to share this time and see whether I actually talk to an Asian or someone else.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Well, I just want to say too that now they're also accepting uh movie comps. So I did uh Mr. and Mrs. Smith as my one of my movie my comps. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

I you know what I actually remember you telling me that uh that is a really good comp. Um the other thing that I always think of with that with that pitch is the white lotus.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yes, well, I did pitch that was in my formal pitch. Also uh the War of the Roses. For real. I no, I didn't pitch that. I'm just telling you that's another comp in my brain.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

I love that. Um Yeah, it's the comp part, like everybody always has questions about comps uh in in it in like pitch sessions and stuff. Just like how how do you pick your comp because everyone wants to think of their book as a as a precious flower that's so different from everything else. Which by the way is the worst thing you could say. Yeah. Yeah. You really want to what your goal is to promote its sellability, not its individuality. Forget your artist's self. Forget them.

unknown 37:51

Forget them.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

They're fine, they're beautiful, but they're for you. Yeah. They're they're for you as a writer and the writing community. But you have to think that this person all they want to know is is this something that people are going to that I can convince a publisher that it will fly off the shelves. Like that's what they need. Put on your salesperson hat. Yeah. Because again, I think people think when they're talking to agents that they are a fellow creative. Or they want them to be. They want them to understand their work. But it's not about that. They live in a completely different world than you do. You know? They ha they wear a different hat, and it's a completely fine hat for them to wear. Uh they just they have a different job than you. And you ha you have to recognize that when you're talking to them.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

I made another amateur author mistake when I wrote my very, very first book, the one that never got anything. And I I talked about themes. I never really got to, I was like, this is an exploration of generational trauma and like, you know, finding yourself and identity, and I never actually got Was that your first paragraph too? This is my in-person pitch. Nice. I love it. Luckily, I was so young, and the woman was much older than me, and she was like, you know, very sweet. She's like, okay, so like what's it about? I was like, oh god.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

I think I think that that's really nice. This is really funny because it talking about like wanting to deepen your pitch and wanting to bring in the things that excite you and how that is a bad move. It reminds me of where I started with my pitch. So the first line I say that is retelling of my fair lady. What I originally wanted to say was it is a retelling of Ovid's Pygmalion. And that's not the right way to go. The right way to go is with the Audrey Hepburn famous movie that came out, you know, in the 1960s, the blockbuster musical that hit the stage in the 1950s. And everybody knows the dresses, everybody knows the basic tale, and it's so much more graspable than making myself feel smart and saying pigmolly and, you know, like saying some some fusty old myth that, you know, is really what I was thinking about when I was writing the story. But that's not, again, you're talking to a salesperson who has a different set of responsibilities than you do as a writer. You have the responsibility of the writer to come up with something that is and beautiful and well thought out, and does have connections to juicy themes that or really fun concepts that you're gonna grip your reader with. That's your responsibility. Their responsibility is to go, okay, how can I skin this cat and sell it? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Exactly, exactly. So your readers are gonna be the ones that are like, wow, this really was a great exploration of these themes.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Yes, yes, that's that's what you hope. And and it's it is also your responsibility, like this is the professional side of writing. It's your responsibility to figure out how to communicate with this person in this separate world, how to sell yourself. And unfortunately, it's gonna feel like you're breaking yourself down for parts. Yes, it hurts, but it's not actually that, you know. You're you're just taking certain things, putting them in a nice little package and pushing it out there. It's separate from your work, it's separate from your soul, and it's a good exercise to do, you know. So let's move on to throwing some tomatoes. Yes. I'm excited to read mine today. Uh do you mind if I go first? Go for it. I think it's really interesting. I I picked it because it's it's different from my usual bad review. This is a bad review for the Hunger Games. Oh yes, and I thought it was just very interesting. Okay, so the title says Battle Royale Rip-off. Says bought it, read it, completely unimpressed. This book is an unrealistic ripoff of Japanese thriller Battle Royale. And in parentheses, it says, in the future, the Japanese government, this is a summary of Battle Royale. The Japanese government captures a class of ninth grade students and forces them to kill each other under the revolutionary Battle Royale Act, and then goes on with the rest of the review, says plopped into the setting from Scott Westerfield's Uglies trilogy, also disappointing. Unlike Battle Royale, however, Hunger Games has a plot hole so enormous it threatens to swallow you whole. While the Japanese government is taking hostage a group of about 30 children and threatening them with weapons as a means to population control, there's never a clear reason why the eventual uprising, quote unquote, that is so momentous in the uh Hunger Games series doesn't happen right from the start. Their pathetic quote unquote government has no real method of threatening the villagers, and no real population would be so blunderingly obedient in the f uh in the face of blatant neglect. Overall, this book is horribly predictable, unoriginal, and certainly not worthy of yet another delusional teen fantasy film series, Ala, Harry Potter, and Twilight. Let a good book be a good book, let bad books die. One star because the writing wasn't horrible and much better than a lot of the other teen trash books. Or sorry, teen trash kids are reading these. So I picked this because I thought it was really interesting how upset this person was that it was close to like I've read Battle Royale. Battle Royale is a famous comic book, a Japanese comic book that's been adapted into a movie. I'm not sure if there is Actual like fictionalized book book of it, but I was definitely an anime nerd in high school, so I know it. And I remember when Hunger Games came out came out, and I was like, oh, it's kind of like Battle Royale, but it didn't offend me. You know? Like it's just like it's yeah, it's sim it's it's a concept that has become very popular. The government's trying to kill you, teenagers, you know. Like, okay, cool. It's kind of a fun, quirky, gross horror idea. And I I don't see the problem with an author.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

I agree. Well, that's how everything is. Even music is like that. Obviously, that's a non-creative that wrote that comment because they don't understand how artists are influenced by each other. Mm-hmm. Or how the industry works.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

That they're con that there are constantly uh like that's how things are pitched. It's Battle Royale meets hunger games, is probably being pitched right now. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Some other version meshing the two because they're both incredibly popular. That is exactly how you have to pitch most things. You have to comp them to other things that are popular right now. And that's just how it works. I I don't know, maybe we'll be accused of not wanting to change the way the horrible way things are, but I anyway. So I saw I saw this review and I thought it was very interesting because this person clearly wasn't bored. They they they didn't think badly of the plotting, they just thought that it was a ripoff. It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

I was literally just talking about this with my husband this past weekend. This exact criticism that Hunger Games really went through was this. Wait, you were talking about Hunger Games being called a rip-off? Yes, this weekend. Randomly? When I was in Austin on my on our road trip.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Oh my god. You know what? Maybe maybe that your conversation kind of just made it into my brain. We're so connected, you were like, I'm feeling it, brother. Anyway, so I I guess it's also like no matter what you write, someone someone might come in there in your comments and be like, This is a ripoff. And I guess get used to it, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Yeah. So mine is also very interesting. I did mine on you. Uh I saw I saw the first season of the show. It's totally different from the books, the shows and the show and the pot. The actor gets the actor gets so mad when people say that for some reason. Well, I I agree. He played a complete psychopath. I know, but as readers, we have empathy and the ability to connect with characters even morally gray ones. As readers, we are pathetic and we like who we like. Exactly. It's incredibly predictable. This review though really perplexed me because this well, let me just read it and then I'll tell you. So it's one star. Okay, this book is really, really hard for me to read because plot-wise, it was engaging, addictive, and thoroughly thrilling. I had to find out what happened next, and it was so twisted and sick and entertaining. So far great. But content-wise, there were a lot of problems I had with this book. I have a really hard time with how explicit and violent it was. It makes me hesitant to recommend to people. There were definitely points in the story that I was disturbed and a bit offended. The writing is unique and fits the story really well. It's written in the second person, so it's as if Joe, the narrator, is talking directly to you. But it wasn't at all pretty writing. In fact, there were quite a few times I rolled my eyes at how ridiculous he sounded. Also, I'm not sure if I was just ill informed or if the book is incorrectly categorized, but this book definitely borders on erotica at times, which I'm not a fan of. If I had known that, I probably wouldn't have read it, since I'm just not interested in reading that kind of stuff. So knowing all that, I'd say reading this is definitely up to your discretion. It was entertaining, but I couldn't but I could have gone without reading it at the end of the day. So this I like that review actually. You do? Yes. Like ironically or like like sarcastically? No, real, for real. I like it. I'll tell you why. You tell me your thoughts, but I'll tell you why I like it. I didn't like it because this book was obviously very entertaining and he liked the premise of it and the story, but he just wanted it more censored. He didn't like the way it made him feel. And that really makes me mad in all the reviews. Call it boring, whatever. What really makes me mad is when people don't like a book because it triggers them emotionally and makes them feel bad, and they can't tolerate that negative emotion inside of them, and they can't say this is this is a me problem, this must be a you problem, a book problem, and so I'm gonna say I don't like you instead of recognizing there's something in myself that's not having a hard time settling with this.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Okay, I understand what you're saying. Okay, and I don't like those reviews either. I just don't think that this was one of them. Okay. And here's why. Because he specifically said that he was struggling with recommending the book. So it's a question of saying, like, I feel like he was treating the review process not at like he I almost think he was treating it like readers should treat it, which is basically like, hey, would I personally with my set of tastes recommend this book? No. And that can be helpful to people with the same taste. So for example, one of my favorite when I was still on Twitter, one of my favorite uh Twitter accounts, uh God, what was the name? I'm terrible at names, but it is basically a whole account posting romance books saying, Do they have sex or do they not? That was it. Like, is it open door or is it closed door? And it catered to both types of ladies. There are ladies who are like, I definitely want them, I want to, I wanna read everything. And then there are ladies who are like, I don't like that kind of story at all. And they would just say, Did it do it or did it not? And you could go through this and you could find some really good romance books according to your taste. So with this guy, I feel like he was treating the review process almost like a if you have my set of tastes, can I recommend this book? I don't think so. But he he never said anything that was like this book is trash because it's it verges on erotica. He said, I don't particularly enjoy erotica, right? So that's kind of there were there were very subtle distinctions for me that made me go, I wouldn't hate this guy. You know, I don't think like he seemed to be making a personal statement that was less judgmental than some of the reviews we've read. All right.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

I'll I'll allow you to be fair.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

You'll allow me to be fair. I love that. You know, one of these days I'm gonna read a review and you're gonna be like, this person was absolutely right. You know, it might be next episode. Just get back at me. I challenge you. I that's your next challenge. Uh what's our next episode?

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Oh, we have a reader question. This one's exciting. What's a dream opportunity you'd both love to have? Arena line. Okay, you go first. Be an executive producer on one of my books being made into film or TV.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Oh, that's great. I love that. I mean, wait wait, which book do you want most? Oh, we don't care. We don't care. Any one of them. Yep. Which do you think is best fit for screen adaptation?

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Well, I would say love language is murder. And I do have, you know, motion on that. But the my horror book that I'm out on sub with right now, I feel like horror is having a moment. We just saw that in the Oscars, and now all these things coming out, so I'm like, maybe the horror book has a better shot. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Yeah. I mean, horror, particularly right now, is having a moment, likely because uh there's been such a drought in uh independent films being made recently. And when I say independent, I I don't mean like hardcore indie. I just mean like people breaking in into the industry making new movies that are not superhero movies, making original plots because horror movies actually are cheaper to make most of the time. And like you can actually see like there are there are a lot of um genre films that are like, oh, this started out as a sci-fi concept, didn't it? But it's way cheaper to make it a horror. Okay, so they choose they changed it up. Anyway, so uh yeah, that would be really exciting. God. I mean, I think that what what would I like? What what's a dream opportunity for me? I mean, really at this point, I would just I would love to find myself at a nice party where everyone is pleasantly tipsy, where I can pitch my book. Like industry insiders, the top ones, so I can just say, hey, I have a book, and they accept it. So you're further along than me.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Well, this is just how I am. I'm always like dreaming for things that are probably unattainable. That's that's how I've been my whole life. So it probably would do me better to be more realistic with my dreams.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

I mean, I I would love to have some sort of screen adaptation of the book that I'm writing. I think that it would be a really fun television show, mini-series.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

That would be fun.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

Yeah. Like I I think that it I think it is supremely adaptable. Uh, and it I think it would be a really, really good time. And there are a lot of people that like given given the Gilded Age, like the alienist, Caleb Carr. Um uh that was that came out. Like, I saw it as a miniseries first, and it was really fun. So, and then I read the book. And it's like it's kind of a similar time. It's like 1911, New York. I don't know. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Any industry insiders out there listening?

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Yeah, at least a party and get pleasantly junk so I can pitch you my book.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

And so keeping on the theme of fame, I have one last question for you. Okay. What is it? Is there a shame, or should we be ashamed, to want fame in this literary world?

SPEAKER_00 53:54

That's a really good question given some of the comments that we've gotten in the past around talking about fame and celebrity when it comes to being a true artist. So I think I'm gonna have to give you a longer answer next week. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Thank you so much for listening. Write to us. And this was PageFright. Give us your questions, and we look forward to seeing you next week. And like and subscribe. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Bye. You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe, and write to us at PageFrightcontact at gmail.com.