The Lies We Tell for Writing Success

This week on Page Fright, dive into the myths and realities of being a writer with Sydney Kane and Liza Petrov. As creatives, we all have to "keep the faith" about our own inevitable success, right? But when does that necessary faith veer into self-delusion? Are our hopes for our futures too high? Or are they not high enough?

Join us as we discuss the highs and lows of life after getting an agent, selling a manuscript, and publishing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm Sydney Kane. And I'm Lisa Petrov. And you're listening to Page Fright, where we talk about writing craft, the ins and out of the publishing industry, and our own personal journeys as authors. So let's dive in. Well, hey. We have an exciting event coming up in a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Yeah. We finally got our tickets. I know. For for longtime listeners, they will remember. Anybody paying attention will remember that we kept on going, have you bought the tickets? No. Oh my God, no. So that also continued offline in our texting conversations. Yes. For many, many ways. Have you bought your tickets? No. Anyway, finally did. Full price. Full price. Yes. So going full price to the Writers League of Texas Agents and Editors Conference. Very excited. Uh I unfortunately missed the cutoff date to get a free one-on-one with an agent. So I'll also be paying full price for that and getting uh last divs on who I can pitch to. I'm like, why? Why do I do this to myself? I know. Anyway, I'm really excited because we also have some plans.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Yes, we do. We have evil plans to suck people into our vortex. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yes, exactly. You know what? Actually, they're not so evil. We just want more listeners. So yeah, we're uh we're gonna be going to the conference equipped with uh QR code QR code, cards, and little advertisements to our different episodes, leaving them around, different craft episodes, so that all of our fellow writers who are looking for some camaraderie, some advice. Exactly. Can come watch us and participate in our community. We love the questions from our viewers and we love our viewers who leave consistent comments.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I know it makes our week. And if you are a current listener and you want to meet us, this would be a great opportunity is to come to this conference and meet us. We'll be around the whole weekend. Full price tickets are still available.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yes, they are. Uh but it for real, it is a great time. The Writers League of Texas is a great organization. I I think that they did a great job last time. I met I met you, but I also met so many other people that I I felt gave great advice and helped me find my footing and my confidence as a writer, as a professional in the sphere. And so I'm excited to see them again and to meet new faces.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yeah, I felt like no, I've been to a lot of conferences and there was just something different about this one. It just felt so much more friendly and like people actually wanted to talk to you and make new friends. Normally before I'd always be sitting by myself, just like, oh, does anyone want to talk to me or just feeling super awkward? And this time people like you would come up right up to me and be like, Hi, I'm so and so.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

I mean, you're like the first person that I just I just I was barating myself seconds before I turned to you. So like just is imagine this. You were sitting next to me going, oh, and I was probably doing I was going, stupid person, you need to talk to anybody, anybody, just turn to this very nice looking woman and introduce yourself. And then I did, and it was great.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

I don't even remember the first time we met. Like in my memories, it's just we just met and were friends. Like, I don't have the specific time of us meeting in my head. It's funny.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

I remember it because I was so nervous to network. So like I remember like the just sitting next to you, turning and going, All right, like I'm gonna say something. Anyway, that's uh well and the rest is history. Yes, exactly. That's a good podcast, by the way. You should check out the rest is history. Yeah, it's great. I mean, every everybody listens to it. It's super popular. If you're if you want to become a hist a history buff, that's a good place to start. That's a great title, too. That's some great marketing. Yeah, they're they're very pithy. They also have um a new book review club, or not club, but podcast. It's a less good title. It's called The Book Club. It's kind of okay. But uh guests, so I'm getting ahead of myself. They generally have been reviewing like big famous classics. And uh they did Frankenstein, the uh the Hounds of Basketball uh Sherlock Holmes. They did a bunch of others. I just can't remember them. Oh, they did 1984, so classics. But guess what they did last week, Sydney? Wathering Heights? They did Wuthering Heights a little bit before that, but no. Can't even imagine what just just just take a gander at one of the most just just think, it's one of the most popular book series around right now. And it's kind of unusual that a 50-something, 60-something, super uh renowned historian, they're both Brits, and a uh she's a young, she's she's much younger. She's in her 20s, but she's very, you know, well read. Also very British. Anyway, they read Akatar. Dang it! I was gonna guess that, but then I was like, you're gonna sound stupid if you guess that, so don't guess it. Oh yeah. No, she she made them do it. It was very funny. Um, and uh I quite liked their episode. Did they did they enjoy it? Well, so she she read it during COVID on her own. Uh when she was, you know, during during the whole lockdown period. So she'd already read it. And uh the her other host, his name is uh Dominic Sandbrook, uh, he was he basically said, like, well, if you didn't make me read this for the podcast, this is not a book that I would have ever read or picked up. I'm not the target audience. It's completely outside of my sphere. I'm going to not say whether he liked it or not. I'm gonna leave that to you to find out. Uh but uh yeah, it was it was a really fun episode. I thought they did a great job. She she likes the series. She's read far more of it. They should they should sponsor us for this uh free little plug we did for them.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Spreading good good vibes. Totally, totally. So we have a good vibey episode today about all the lies and myths we tell ourselves as authors, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yes, exactly. There you you actually had a great series of different lies that we tell ourselves. My favorite one, I want to start with my favorite one, okay, which is once I get an agent deal, whatever, everything will be easier. Yeah. Yes. I I love that one because I still do it. I still tell myself it's this uh the grass is greener on the other side kind of feeling. And I'll go into the delusion part of it. You can go into the reality. How about that? Okay, yeah, okay. Yeah. So as a pre-agented author, there's there's a part of me that when I when I write, I I do think of it as just a line to get across, and I will feel proud of myself and almost like I did everything I need to do. I got the agent, you know, I got the recognition, and that's that's fine. And I almost push out of my head all of the complications that I know are like bubbling beyond the horizon. Because I know authors who are agented, authors who are published, and obviously there are issues that happen after that. There's a lot of pressure uh and just problems that can arise, even if you've, you know, gotten your book fully bought by a publisher and then it's on bookshelves and everything. There's there's problems all the way down. But when you're pre-agented, it's just like that's the one thing you want. You know?

SPEAKER_01 8:12

It feels like it's the one thing keeping you from your dream. First, it's like if I finish this book, then it'll all line up. Then if it's if I get this agent, it'll all line up. And then once you get the agent, you realize, okay, now I'm at risk of losing this agent if I don't sell the book. Took me a full year to sell my manuscript. And I was thinking the whole time, like, oh my God, what if this book doesn't sell? What if I lose my agent? Which, even though she reassured me over and over again I wasn't gonna lose her, I guess I have an insecur insecure attachment style because I was like, I still feel like you're gonna leave me. And and then you get the book deal, and then you realize, okay, now I have to have, first of all, have a successful release, do well with this book, or I'll never get another book deal. And I'm sure once this book comes out, there will be other pressures. You know, I'm kind of in the okay, I finally got a book deal. Now I have to prepare my book like I'm in the thick of uh developmental edits right now. And it's it each step, it does, although it does get better, like when you get the agent, you do pass that step of all I want is the agent, and there's that moment of celebration, but then it just comes with different delusions of like if I just get the book deal or if I just, you know, I don't even know, come up with another book. I I think each time you cross that line, as you said, it just you have a moment to celebrate, and then you realize, oh wow, there's still a ton of mountain to climb.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah. Well, so I have I have a couple thoughts on this. I think that one, with with that, you know, every threshold that you pass, there's a small moment of celebration, and then you realize there's a bunch of mountain to climb. When I when I can or when I imagine this for myself, I think of it as every single one of these thresholds, the reason we want to celebrate it is because we feel like it actually, or it's not just we feel like it is, it could be the moment where everything takes off. Because that's kind of how success happens. At least, at least in my experience, from people that I know. And it's not just in the writing sphere. It's kind of like it all just happens at once. Something clicks in the universe, in culture, in whatever industry you're in, and like all of the wealth and success and everything just kind of comes in just like boom, all at once. However, that's not taking in the decade or so of waiting and investing into that moment that you've done. So it's kind of like you just don't know when that magic click moment is going to happen for you.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

I think that that's kind of how it generally manifests. So it's just like you have all of these super famous authors, super famous books under their belt, and then you look at their careers and you go, hey, there's a decade before that of you toiling. And all of that toiling was not toiling without these moments where they're like, okay, I got an agent. Okay, I got a book out. Every single one of those moments for them in real time definitely felt like, hey, could this be the magic moment? And that point that you're describing where there's still a whole mountain ahead. I think that that's just describing the letdown of, it wasn't that moment for me. Damn. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Well, because for some people, their book deal comes two weeks after going on submission, they're going to auction, five book deals, six figures or seven figures for their debut. And so you think, oh, is this gonna be me? And then the weeks pass and you're like, okay, I guess this is not me.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

But you have to also think about this seven figures for a debut. To me, that's a little scary, actually. Like, you gotta you gotta sell out of that, or you're either not giving you like I there's a whole thing with like if you accept the money, then you have to give it back if you don't make it all the way out, you know? If your sales, if the book bombs and they had so much faith in you, I'm not sure if you get all that money. Like that's that is to me a much scarier, bigger letdown.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Well, it's it's not that you don't get the money, it's that now you didn't earn out your advance. And so now they're probably not going to give you another book deal.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

But on the flip side of that, I heard that there's there's a more maybe I'm completely wrong, but I heard that there is a more intense side of this where like you could be on the hook.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Well, you know what? I'm not even close to ever closing one of those deals. So if I ever do, I'll let you in on the scoop. Okay. Maybe that's a different tier of contract where they're like, you know, they didn't even include that in my contract because they're like, you know, you're fine, you just keep it. Yeah. Yeah, that's I'll have to I'll ask my agent about that because I've never heard of that.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

I'm very curious. I want to answer this question next episode. Please ask her because when when you get up to these really big advances for authors, especially for debuts, is what it what are the downsides of them and what should what should we worry about in just in case like you write something that people just happen to click with? Or publishers happen to click with, but you don't know whether the readers and the bookstores actually will.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Well, that's a whole other issue because they're probably not going to be betting on you unless you're like a sure bet. And so probably it's already been kind of done before and you're just uh regurgitating it in a different way.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

I mean, well, that's absolutely true, but like it can happen that like they predict wrong. True. They're they're like, hey, everybody's reading this type of book right now, and you have this type of book, let's go for it. But in actuality, it's the trend is over.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

The good thing though about let's just say, you know, there is a huge risk with getting a huge advance. But then on the other side of it is they're gonna put so much marketing into you that you're gonna you're gonna come out as a debut with a bang. Like you're not gonna be starting out mid-list. You are for sure gonna be selling tons of copies because they're gonna make sure that you do. There that's not gonna be a question.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah. Yeah, that's that that is another part of it. It's just like, okay, so it's not just about getting the agent getting recognized by somebody. It's about getting recognized by the right somebody. Exactly. Right organizations and in the right way. Like you could get recognized by a great agent, picked up by a great agent. Your book is sold to a great publisher, but they're not going to put any money into your marketing. And I just don't know how I feel about that because if they're not putting any money into your marketing, then why did they pick you up in the first place? Because you're clear, like you're not the marketing powerhouse. You're going to them for marketing. You're not, you're not the, you can't do it alone. I I just don't understand this, this aspect of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Publishing is such a deep hole of confusion to me with first of all, how do they make money? How are they profiting from book tours? How are they, how do they manage lead titles versus mid lists? Like, is that predetermined? When you sign, do they say, okay, this is gonna be a mid list and just like pigeonhole you there? And like, do they pick their lead titles? Like, are they influencing the market so much that they kind of know already we're gonna market this in such a way that it's gonna be huge? And then maybe that's why they those lead titles, like the ones that we love, only have three stars, is because maybe they're actually not that good, but the publishers have forced them to be bestsellers, but they're actually not the best books ever.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

I don't know. I mean, I I would definitely say that I do not think that publishing is a meritocracy when it comes to the books that end up getting the most marketing and just get on New York Times bestseller list, etc., because there's so much networking behind the scenes that it cannot be the best book is is definitely winning every time. It's the most connected author is getting on the New York Times bestseller list. And I I don't say this to be cynical or upset about it, because like I'm not really making a comment on on how whether I think that's bad or not. I just because I understand like there are realities of the industry. You know who you know, you know, like the if you happen to be in the room and and you have a book and you can get it marketed through the right avenues, like go for it. That's that's my general thought on this. But I I do think that like for readers looking for the best books out there, you can't necessarily rely. That just means you can't necessarily rely on New York Times bestseller list and and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Well, that kind of brings us to our next lie that we tell ourselves or delusion that we tell ourselves is if I write a better book, then I'll be successful.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yes. I don't I don't think so. I know. I think that you can you can come up with a super on-trend topic to write about, but I do not think that the caliber of your book is gonna dictate your success. I think that those are two completely different concepts. Success and merit. They don't even know each other.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Well, and and what even is successful? Like how are we determining that? I mean, does that mean you're making a list? Does that mean you're just publishing? Does that mean you have like five fans? What do we I feel like that bar is always going up for me because I've I feel like I'm I'm like a mother that will never be satisfied with myself, you know, like I'm always disappointed in myself. It's like I told myself, when you write the book, then I'll be proud of you. And then it's like when you get the agent, I'll be proud of you. When you get the book deal, I'll be proud of you. No, no, this is some born-in personality trait where it's just like constantly how we treat ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Exactly, exactly. Well, we're way harsher on ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

You know, I think that it as as I get older and the more I reflect on what success means to me and what it means to be a professional, at least in this sphere, I just have to divorce what I emotionally want to gain from my writing and what I want to emotionally gain from success. So, for example, I cannot combine writing the best book that I can possibly do, something that I'm super proud of, with whether I get on the New York Times bestseller list. I have to think about other things to get on the New York Times bestseller list. I have to think about that being connected to how well I network. Who am I going to meet at this conference? Who how can I get into the same room as on a call with someone that is important in the industry or multiple people that are important in the industry? What programs can I enter in order to move up that ladder and get introduced to the right people who will end up promoting me? So, for example, this book that I'm writing is long and it may be completely rejected by every single potential uh agent that I approach. But I promise myself that before I self-publish, I'm going to try to connect with as many people as I can to see if I can find some sort of person with sway who can be a champion for it. Because that is the only way I've ever seen debut authors with super long books actually get published. The biggest example is Susanna Clark by Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Uh, I don't know if you've heard of this series. You've definitely seen it in a bookstore. You have definitely seen a big book with a spine this thick just hanging out in a bookstore, big and black, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell on the side. And that was her debut book. It is like 600 something pages.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

What?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Massive bestseller. Like she was completely unheard of, out of nowhere, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. And it is a long, long book set in the early 1800s, Napoleonic era, that goes that basically goes into a totally off-beat fantasy, magical realism story about a battle between two academic magicians. There is no romance in this. This is not an Avatar book, but it was a massive bestseller, this woman's debut. And it was only because Neil Gaiman championed her. And he was just knocking, knocking on people's doors, being like, no, you gotta, you have to publish this. And you have to, like, you have to read it. And so it's like, okay. Obviously, I'm not meeting Neil Gaiman anytime soon and and asking him to be my champion. But that is the power of networking and making a friend that believes in your work, who's already and it's not because like anyone's gatekeeping or anything like that. It's just because these people knew him. He had connections and they were like, hey, we trust your opinion on this. You you have proven some sort of worth in selling books, obviously. And if you bring up this name that we have no connection with, something can happen. Doors can open.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Well, you know, it might be a good idea if you when you go and meet these agents, you're super likable, you f get in their face, and you don't lead with I've written a 200,000. You start with the hook and you bring them in and then show them the vision.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

I I have I have a pitch that does not include word count. Excellent. Love it. The pitch has been successful in the past. I think it's a good pitch, but it's just a question of like getting through the moment of their baseballing and going like oh. Shit. She's one of those. Mm-hmm. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. Uh I'm going to force myself through the embarrassment. It'll be fine. What's the worst that can happen? You're just meeting this person in a very short one-on-one at a conference. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

And they just say. And then they're going to regret it forever. That's what I that's how I always tell myself when I would face rejection. When I when I was keeping names, I'm like, I remember you will regret this.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Well, so what do you what do you think about this kind of like, is it the caliber of the book? Or is it something else that's going is it is it related to success at all?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

I mean, you know, I think like anything, it's a bit of both. It's one or the other. It's luck. This this industry is so it's constantly changing. The tides in and out. It's just if you write an amazing book and you happen to have an agent that sees it's amazing, then they pick you up. Or let's say your hook's amazing and it's what's selling right now, they pick you up. I mean, there's no way to guess. That's why I think it's futile to try and say, okay, I'm gonna follow the trends, or I'm gonna try and write commercial or upmarket. You just have to write what's in your soul because it you will burn out and die if you try to figure out the key or like that that magic ingredient that's gonna make you successful or it's gonna get you published. Because there's really it's really just luck and meeting the right people and timing.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah, exactly. And just being willing to accept the idea that you might not get what you want. That's like I know that there are a lot of writers out there that want to write for success. And you just have to divorce the idea of divorce success from being attached to whether your writing is good or not. Because there had just been too many writers in history who have been excellent and they weren't discovered in their lifetimes. And that's that's just the reality of it. And thank God they kept writing. Yes?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah. Well, I think too is having goals that are in your in the realm of reaching when you start like before when I approached my husband and said, Hey, I want to quit my job after six years of training and I want to be a writer. And he was like, uh, what? And then eventually came around to it. I told myself, I just want to write books because I love it, with the goal of getting an agent, but I'm gonna write because I love it. And even if that means I'm gonna start at the very bottom and just self-publish and try and get an audience and me being in charge of everything and marketing and all of that, I'm gonna do it because of the love I have for writing. Then when I got the agent, I allowed myself to broaden that goal and say, okay, now I want to sell a book to a publisher. And then when I got that, I'm like, okay, maybe it'll be successful. I want to sell 5,000 copies. You know, like I'm allowing myself each time I cross that line to make my dream a little bigger. And I think that's a manageable way to approach the industry without thinking from day one, I want to be a New York Times bestseller, household name.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

You know? Yes. Yeah, I think I think starting from day one thinking that you want all of that, if you're not already just plugged into the top of the industry, that's that's a waste of time, honestly. And it's just torturing yourself. Like I I can't live that way. I have to, you have to learn how to accept where you are in life and to love where you are, because otherwise, what are you gonna do when you're older? You're gonna look back and and say, I've regretted every moment of my life that I wasn't in some sort of dream scenario. No, like learn to love each stage because each stage has its beauty. Your your pre-aging stage had worth. And your your waiting to be sold to a publisher also had worth. I was there. I saw I saw you working on different stories. I know that there was there was pain involved in the waiting, in in the worry, but there was also such a just sweet period of development. It was. I'm I'm glad that you can see it that way.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

It's so much easier though to say I'm still there, so I have to. That's what I was gonna say, because I can see it in you too. Like I'm like, you're in that stage where you're just about to put yourself out there and I can see your future and I can like see the success you're gonna have, but you probably don't see it as clearly as me, or I don't know, maybe I'm just projecting because of my own issues. But why are we like this where we tell ourselves so many lies? Like, I don't know. Is it just creatives? I don't see other people in other jobs thinking.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Can't imagine that, say, a pre-med student has to live on a little bit of faith. Well, that is true. Right? Like, I think everybody has to live on a certain diet of faith and and lies and just hope. That's true. No, because hope is hope in on on some level is a version of a lie. Faith is a version of a lie that you have to tell yourself in order to get yourself through a period of waiting, a period of wanting, and an unrequited whatever. You want what you want, and you have to believe that you're going to get it. Otherwise, I don't know. I can't I can't live in that state of pessimism.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

But med students though are a little different because if they put the work in, if they study, if they do well, they will be successful and they will be a doctor eventually. They'll be a doctor, but where will they be a doctor?

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Uh what kind of hours will they have? Will they uh will they get like the kind of pay that they hope for? Uh if if they I I hear that like, I don't know, being a surgeon, if you don't if you don't have certain qualities, you're just you're not gonna be a surgeon. True, true.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

I guess but it on the flip side, if you're a writer and you put all the work in and you do all the right things and you make this your like it doesn't guarantee that you'll be a traditionally published author. Whereas doctors, at the end of the day, you will be a doctor no matter where it is. It's almost like even if it's like a very small publishing house, you'll still be there, you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

I I would say that you have to be open to the success that comes your way. It may not come in the shape that you originally imagined it as, but I think that even if you don't become, for example, a New York Times bestseller, traditionally published author, you may find a route to selling a whole bunch of books as a self-published author with uh a website that that you host on your own through some weird mean. Like, I don't know, the the world is so bizarre and it's moving so fast. Like, there are streamers that do uh for the audience that doesn't know what streaming is, it's basically uh there's something called Twitch. Uh you can sit, you you're like a little square on the screen. They see your face and then they see you playing a video game on the rest of the screen, for example. And you're you're basically streaming for hours on end. You're sitting in that chair, you're on camera, and people are just hanging out with you. And there are streamers now that all their content is about video games, and they're making movies. They're making their and some of these movies are very successful. And it's just like they they didn't start streaming to make movies. You know what I mean? They and there are other streamers that are out there that are making tons of money just off of what they do, just off of sitting around. They didn't make a movie. But like, that's I think that there are just so many different pathways. Like, you could you could end up streaming as as a way to get audience, and then that audience gets locked into your personality, and then you write a book, and then they buy the book. Like, but the book is self-published and and nobody respects it, and but tons of people read it, and then you just have all this money. That's a way to be. I think you just have to find happiness with what ends up coming your way, and you need to accept yourself at every stage.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I think what I've really told myself is that you have a rare opportunity that many people don't get, which is you get to pursue your your hobby, your dream of writing. And so even if I'm just writing all of these books just for myself and only a handful of people read them, I think I can be happy because I get to do what I love every day. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

That's exactly it. As long as you get a chance to write every day, that's to me, that's the most successful thing that you can be. If you can get your words on paper and you can see what's in your imagination come out, you know, and your characters come alive. I feel like that's that's something that people don't particularly want to hear though. They also they want the recognition. They want, they want to be out there. They want to, they want to be speaking to rooms full of people going, read this chapter aloud to me, author. Please. I paid to be here. Sign my book.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Well, I think that kind of comes to another lie that we talk about, which is like when I reach this certain point, I'll be a real writer. And it's almost like we're constantly looking for permission to say you're writer, because sometimes I'll say to people, they'll ask me, What do you do? And I've transitioned now from saying I'm a psychologist to I'm a writer. And then they'll say to me, Oh, let me look up one of your books. And I'm like, Oh, well, it's not out yet. And then I'm then I think to myself, Can I say I'm a writer? I haven't published a book yet. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Because I've started saying I'm a writer. You have? Yes. I have. I I've completely given up on caring. Honestly. I I don't care anymore. I I don't care. And you know what? It may be because I'm 37, about to turn 38, proud of my age. And as I get older, I'm realizing it's just like all of these rules that I have followed for so long. Rules are for babies. Like, what is this? Like, we tell ourselves when we're younger, we we self-impose all of these guardrails on our lives that don't necessarily need to be there. Like, I don't know. An example is I was thinking about this yesterday. When I was 21, I had a type. I had a type of guy that I liked. Okay, I'm 37 now, and I'm like, whatever. Like a type? Like, why why would I care about that? It's why would I limit myself to one type of person to get to know, one type of friend to have, one type of social circle that I tell myself I belong to. So why am I limiting myself to saying random stranger that just asked me what I do? I'm going to say something that doesn't actually express what I spend most of my time doing. Sure, I'm not agented. Sure, if you try to look up my books, if you if you look me up really hard, you can find an old fan fiction. That's what you're gonna find right now. But I don't, I don't give a damn because I know that I am a writer at heart. I am writing every day. I do have clear professional goals that I want to accomplish. And the writer's path is just different than a regular professional's path. You know? You don't get hired by somebody right out the gate. And like I worked in PR in DC, like s in a in a past life. So I could have said, Yeah, I do I work in a research department at a PR firm. Like I could have said that in the in the past, and that would have been that would have totally been fine. But as a writer, you just have to forge your own way.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah, you have to be okay with this limbo. Living in limbo. And never ever truly feeling well, or finding a way to feel like a true writer. Because if I don't feel like a true writer now, will I ever What are you doing? What are you doing, girl? Yeah. I know. You have written this amazing book. If you don't feel like a writer by now, you know?

SPEAKER_00 34:12

And I do feel like a writer because I I am proud of the book that I wrote, and I'm proud of the books that I'm going to write. Like I have I have plenty of good ideas, and I think that that's all you really need.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

So I'm so excited for this new idea you told me about.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Did I tell you about it on an episode or did I tell you about it offline?

SPEAKER_01 34:30

We talked about it offline.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Oh, okay. Yeah, let's just keep secrets.

unknown 34:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Uh but yeah, I I'm very excited about it too. I've I've spent um while my manuscript is out with beta readers, I'm spending the time developing this other story and it's I think it's going very well. It's it's really fun. It's it's refreshing to to work on something new and so different.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yeah, it's so different from what you're writing now. Yeah. Do you want to give a clue about genre?

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah. So it's gonna be so much lighter and easier. It's gonna be fully commercial fiction, first of all. No, no upmarket, no literary, no nothing like that. Just commercial. So you're gonna have to you're gonna have to teach me, beta reader, how to how to tone down my subtext tendencies and get a little bit more blatant with my writing. But yeah, it's gonna be a contemporary romance, and I'm very excited. Very, very commercial. It's gonna be 80,000 words. That's what I'm aiming for. Something short, sweet, funny, fun, has murder in it, sexy, yes, obviously. It'll be an open door romance for for people that aren't up on the lingo for open door means explicit sex scene where you're there. My grandma was so cute. I was talking to her some years ago. We were talking about romance books, and she said, um, I but she didn't like the romance books with any sex in it. Uh, she said, when the characters start doing it, she said she doesn't know where to look. As if she's in the room with the thing. I'm like, well, you look at the page and you read it. You look kind of downwards.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Whereas if you're me, you're looking everywhere. You're like, I don't want to miss a thing. That's very funny. That's a good memory. Yeah. That is a good memory. That's a memory, precious. So another lie that we tell ourselves is that if we write a good book, we're gonna get amazing reviews always. And as we know, that's just not the case. So let's move on to throwing tomatoes at I got a good one. Best selling today.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

I'm so excited to do this one. Okay. This review was uh I I can't, I uh okay. So I have to dive in. I'm I'm just like taking over here. I'm so sorry. But I found bad reviews for The Outsiders, SC Hintons, The Outsiders. We all read in like seventh grade. You read it, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't I couldn't tell you one thing about it, but yeah. Well, it's a you know, it's about greaser boys in a gang. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh it's about the the riches and the poors. And um it's from the perspective of a 14-year-old boy who's like, he's one of the greasers, but he has like a little bit more, you know, he's just a little bit more sensitive. And there's a lot of violence in the book, and he's just kind of he's dealing with like, do I fit in this world? And do these stereotypes like apply to like the stereotypes about the greasers and the stereotypes about the about the rich people? Are they true to life? Are they things that I should live by? Like they I it's it's a wonderful coming-of-age story that you know tons of middle schoolers across America read every year. And I think it's just a wonderful book that's taught in schools. Anyway, so this person hated it. I'm gonna read their review titled Horrible, Horrible, Horrible Book. I lost my faith in literature after reading this book. I do not have words to describe how awful this book is. I had to read it for school, and by the end, I wanted to burn it. It is cliche, static, and sappy beyond belief. The author, and this is true, that's in parentheses, was a 16-year-old with a D in creative writing class. And you can tell, oh, you can most certainly tell. The plot is awful. The characters, and characters, just so you know, is spelled C-H-A-R-C-T-O-R-S in this um in this. Oh dear. Just I don't know. She's thrown too much. I think I think someone else got a D in there. Yes. I'm I'm being petty. Anyway, the plot is awful. The characters made me want to throw up. And there is literally no point, no plot. This is all catch. No theme or deeper meaning to this novel. I just love it. No theme or deeper meaning to this novel is just precious. It's it's it's fantastic. Anyway, I I finished it and thought, did anything happen in this entire story? And I answered myself, no, nothing did. I just read hundreds of blank pages. Pony Boy, the main character, is the least interesting literary character. She still spells character with an O. Okay, I'm sorry. Pony Boy is the least interesting literary character I have ever encountered. He makes me want to slap him across the face. He is flat, semicolon. The only emotion or trait I got from him was self-pitying. The writing itself is dreadful and half put me to sleep, half made me want to throw this book into a burning abyss of fire. It is immature, undescriptive, and so, so, so cheesy. This is the sappiest book I have ever read. If you have to read this book for school, I pity you. If you are thinking about reading this for fun, I beg you not to. Please go find something with substance. Anyway, I'm like a legion of generations of eighth-grade ELA teachers are like, I disagree. Just so it that book is I just don't know what triggered this person, what made them so unhappy with it. Like they don't even seem like they were necessarily bored by it. They they they seem actively angry.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

And I I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Well, yeah, it's it's a book that made them feel something. I I've also noticed that a lot of these reviews, when I look through them, people hate self-pitying characters, which is so interesting because self-pity is an emotion we all feel. But I've noticed that readers get so triggered by that. They get so annoyed and pissed at characters that have any form of self-pity.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

So I have a question for you then. Should um should we not write self-pitying characters? That should be a rule for writers. Don't write self-pitying characters. Readers don't like it. My characters all have a healthy dose of self-pity.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Who are you if you don't have some self-loathing? Yeah. Who are you if you don't question what you've done or what you're getting yourself into? Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Anyway, so I chose Project Hail Mary.

unknown 41:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Because I think this author is a genius. I mean, his his He's did the Martian too, right? Yeah. And his hobby is just like his hobby is like understanding like astrophysics. I was like, that's that's not my kind of hobby. You know, kudos. This person okay, and this book has m has like over a million reviews. Holy crap. I know.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Well, just remember Martian was self-published. It was? Yes. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Oh my god. So this girl gave it two stars and said, cured my insomnia every time I picked it up.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

I love how I pick these like super long, lustrous reviews, and then you're just like, well, mine is three words.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

You know why? It's because I lose patience. Some of them, I mean, I have read longer ones that have cracked me up, but for the most part, when I read these long reviews, it's like you're putting so much effort into this, and you're boring me with how bored you were with this book. I mean, write something new and interesting. Yeah. So I end up just being like, all right, let me just find one that's shorter because I don't really want to give you the space to trash these people that are doing it. You're so self-pitying as a reviewer. All these reviewers are so self-pitying. Like, why did you spend the time to read the whole book and then take the time to write this huge long review if you didn't like it? Yeah. At least she didn't waste our time.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

She fell asleep. Exactly. I know. And didn't make me fall asleep reading her review. I love that. Well, I heard I heard that that book is great. I did not like the movie that much, but I heard that the book is different.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Yeah, my husband's reading it right now, and he's not a big fiction reader, and he really loves it. He's just so fascinated by the way this author thinks and the way he reasons through certain scenarios and the way he uses logic, his understanding of space and math, and he said he does it in a way where it's digestible for for people.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Although your husband should maybe be introduced to some hard sci-fi. Well, that's what we talk about. He might like that.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

That's what we said is that maybe he's been searching for his genre, and I've been trying to squeeze him into the romanticy thriller horror. You've been trying to squeeze him into romantic?

SPEAKER_00 43:25

What are you thinking? What are you thinking? Like it, damn it.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Um, yeah, girl. Gave him I gave him haunting uh Adeline too. Because I was like, maybe he'll like a horror with a romance. And he just he's he just said to me, This this is this is like a little intense and weird. And I was like, All right, well, I don't know what to do for you then.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Give your husband a list of possible books at home. Yes, please, please. I I cannot wait. This is this is just too much for me. Hearing this. This is so funny. He there's a whole world of if he if he likes Project Hail Mary, there's a whole world of amazing, awesome books about that that that incorporate science into kind of fictional imaginings of where that science can go and the problems that are posed for different characters, moral conundrums as well as practical conundrums that he like if he's responding to this type of book, he's gonna love those.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Send the list because I I I just want him to read fiction one way or the other. I don't care what it is. Let's let's let's get him into it. I I will send a list. I cannot wait. Okay.

unknown 44:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

So let's move on to our question of the day, which is do you guys, meaning you and me and our writers group, do do we give each other brutally honest feedback on each other's work or is there a filter?

SPEAKER_00 44:54

I think it's both. One, yes, but brutally honest feedback has to happen, no matter what. Because what are you a beta reader for if you're not saying like if you have feedback that you believe is constructive criticism that the other person needs to hear, I think you're doing a disservice if you're not giving it. You should give it tactfully. You should you should make sure that you're giving it in a positive way that's not meant to hurt someone else. Like that's that's it. But you should definitely like you should do that. You should be clear and honest with with your opinions.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

That's my thinking. Well, I think it's how you function in a relationship in general, is you don't everything that comes out of your mouth should have a tiny bit of a filter. I mean, you shouldn't be saying everything that comes directly to your mind. But it also shows the importance of having people in your group that you respect them as writers. You know, there's never a time where I'm like the brutally honest thing would be like, oh, I hate your writing. You know, that would never even be a thought I would have to filter. I respect you as a writer, I love your work, and I recognize that maybe my feedback for your work too just doesn't fit with your vision. And so mostly the way we give each other feedback is we try and ask questions, understand each other's vision, and then how to make it stronger. Like what can we add to it? It's not, we don't really get into we don't nitpick each other. It's it's really more like big picture plot development, character development, asking like the bigger questions of like what what emotion were you trying to elicit here? Here's how I think you could make it land harder. We don't try and overstep in each other as like our styles. Because we are because we have such different styles and different ways of writing.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yes, completely agree. And the longer you're in the relationship, the beta reader relationship, the more I don't want to say honest, the actually, you know what, I will. Because when you first start out, you don't really know the person. Like when we first started our writing group, I think that there was a lot of a lot more just going like, oh, I like this, I like that, like just some some tepidness around like, should I say something that I think is needs to be fixed or should be fixed or didn't land right with me? And I feel like as the months have gone on, the years have gone on, we have gotten to a place where we're more willing to just have all of the times when we're like, I didn't this didn't land with me, or this this doesn't work for me. I think you should change this. Before it used to be, we would say we still had the feelings, but we'd say it less often. Less of them made it through into our comments on each other's documents. And now it's just like, I feel like everything that I want to say, like I I I'm just like, I'm putting it out there, and I know that you are going to see it as, hey, this is just Lisa's opinion. My opinion trumps her opinion. I make the ultimate call on what I want my writing to be. And I I believe that you are confident enough in your own craft that whatever I say is just like, okay, you know, I might say it, but it doesn't get the end all be all.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

And I think that you are so brilliant, especially with the way you plot and your big picture. Like last night, for example, we had our writers group and I started, I'm starting this new book, and it's great, by the way. Thanks. I I am a champion of this book. I like this idea. But I had a concept in it that I knew was really loose and it I didn't feel grounded in the foundation because we've talked about this, especially if you have more pantsing tendencies. Sometimes if you don't have your major foundational roots, it's hard to know the characters that well or know where you're going. And what you helped me with so much last night is you were asking me so many questions. Well, like, why are they doing this? What's going on? Who's involved? Who are these people? You were asking me all these questions, and I was like, oh my God, yeah, I don't know the answer to any of these questions. I have got to figure this out. And now today I woke up with such clarity and I was like, oh, I'm so excited. I feel like I have a direction. And I knew going into yesterday, I was like, I need this writer's group because I need Lisa to kick my butt and help me figure out what the heck I'm writing about because I have this like vague picture of it, but I need to, I don't sometimes I don't even know the questions to ask myself. And then you ask me the questions and it seems so obvious. Like, well, duh, of course. But I just need you as a sounding board. I hope I don't get only a mirror.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Yes. That's because that's what I want to give you. I want to give you a clear, no fun house here, just clear, crystal clear mirror so that you can say, these are the questions I need to answer for my plot. These are the questions that readers are going to ask that I want to just pre-put into the writing so that they can go, what about this? That's the answer. What about this? That's the answer. That's that's my goal as a beta reader.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Well, and I was I was listening to other podcasts where they were saying, Oh, I can't have a writer's group or I can't have, I guess we're alpha readers for each other.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

I can't have I had that term yesterday too. I was talking to someone, they were like, Is alpha reader a term? And I was like, I don't know, but you're using it so cool.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah. So we're each other's alpha readers, and they were saying, I can't have that because there's too many voices in my head. But I feel like now that we've been doing this for a couple of years and you've been, you've played a major role in helping me develop several of my books now. I almost feel like I can't do it without you. I I it's like you have to find someone that you first of all respect that has like that knows you as a writer. Like you always, you always see my vision and you embrace it. And I I love having your voice in my head because as I've stated before, sometimes I get sick of myself. I need someone else to have be a sounding board, and you're so, so good at that. I I'm always like, if if I feel insecure about something or I don't know where I want to go, you know, I'm giving you my first draft. I want to know, like, all right, tell me your thoughts because I am lost.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

That's really nice. That's so nice of you to say. Um, well, it it's funny. I am actually thinking about going into some freelance editing. So I love I love the idea that I am a good voice in your head that makes you feel confident and also reflective on your work and makes you feel like, hey, here are here are my list of tasks. Like I it's not a list of problems with my book. It's just a list of tasks to make sure that my plotting gets done.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

And I'm and you're so good at being enthusiastic. I think it's it's you need to make a readsy profile of being a developmental editor, and people should go to you because you really are brilliant with that vision.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

You so much. Well, I have to get some books under my belt. Uh any any listeners out there who are developing books, if you want me to uh give you some developmental advice for the cheap, just reach out.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Well, a lot of uh, you know, you what you could do is do like a sample. Like some people will will submit like a couple paragraphs like to these developmental editors, and then you give your a sample of how you do your edits, and that's all you need is for someone to see like your just a couple paragraphs of your work.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Yeah, maybe I should. I'm I will have way lower rates than everyone else because you know you have to you have to start somewhere. But yeah, I mean, I love our group too. I love submitting to it. I think that for for me, I'm going to get the real blast of everything that you guys have to give to me as beta readers when I submit my super rough draft to you next month. That's gonna be really like I could see the excitement on your face. You're like, finally, something that hasn't been like written and rewritten for so long that's basically ready to push out there. I literally cannot wait to see how you sink your teeth into my super early drafting.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

I'm starving for it. And and and I just really am so thankful that you're you're comfortable being vulnerable enough to trust us with that.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

I mean, I think that as writers, it's our duty to push ourselves into vulnerable spaces. Get yourself some beta readers. If you're out there and you're saying I have too many voices in my head, I can't have a writing group, I can't be with beta readers. I think that's something you gotta get over. Get a therapist. Like, I'm I'm so serious. I did. I don't I don't mean that flippantly. Like, talk to somebody about the voices in your head because those voices are only holding you back. Definitely. Yeah. Get some real people voices that want to support you and push you forward. Because I promise you, the real people that you meet, okay, they're gonna be some weirdos that are like, you shouldn't be a writer, and you're gonna be like, what's wrong with you? I I guarantee you, that's how you're gonna react to that strange person that says that. Everyone else is going to promote you.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Yeah. And you and you and someone that doesn't try and make you question your own voice, it's trying to help you find and develop your own voice. Yes. That's very important too. Exactly. Okay. Sydney, Cindy, I have this feeling that you have a question for me. Well, you are right, because I do. How do you write a query letter and how do you prepare for an in-person pitch? And what's the difference between them?

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Okay, in-person pitch, I have it down. Query letter, you're gonna have to teach me some some things. Okay. Yeah. So why don't we do that next week?

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Because I think it's gonna take some time. I think so too. And that'll be so fun for us to dive into, especially coming up with the conference. We gotta be prepared. Oh, yeah. We have to be prepared. Well, okay. Well, thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Thanks for listening, and we will see you next week on Page Fright. Yeah, see you next week. Uh uh, like and subscribe.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Exactly. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

You just listened to Page Fright. Don't forget to like and subscribe and write to us at pagefrightcontact at gmail.com.